Luftwaffe insigna

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Hey, I call BS on that.  

Let's be Americans and lets remember we are a democracy.  

Thought America was a republic?

 Okay time for me to hit the books I will go read learn this.

 

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Thought America was a republic?

 Okay time for me to hit the books I will go read learn this.

 

Yup.  Republic.  And democracy.  Constitutional republic form of democracy.

I hope your cold is fended off by morning...

[StevenL757]

Filtering out the political stuff, Kerry’s find is pretty damn cool from a purely aviation-related historical perspective.  I wonder if the Smithsonian or Udvar-Hazy at IAD could give any guidance or positively match it to an aircraft type.  Rich may have nailed it.

Kerry, thanks for sharing.

Steve

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Filtering out the political stuff, Kerry’s find is pretty damn cool from a purely aviation-related historical perspective.  I wonder if the Smithsonian or Udvar-Hazy at IAD could give any guidance or positively match it to an aircraft type.  Rich may have nailed it.

Kerry, thanks for sharing.

Steve

That is a really good idea.  My grandfather was a major history buff, and also a WWII vet.  He was an officer during WWII and he came into possession of a seatbelt that one of his personnel had personally acquired during the attack on Pearl Harbor from a downed Japanese zero.  The guy had come to the zero immediately after it crashed and cut the seat belt out after the battle in pulling out the person inside.  He kept the seatbelt and my grandfather some how had come to own it during the war.  Living in Washington DC many years later he presented it to the Smithsonian, and when I was little he showed it to me on display there.

Maybe this item would find its way somewhere?

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

That is a really good idea.  My grandfather was a major history buff, and also a WWII vet.  He was an officer during WWII and he came into possession of a seatbelt that one of his personnel had personally acquired during the attack on Pearl Harbor from a downed Japanese zero.  The guy had come to the zero immediately after it crashed and cut the seat belt out after the battle in pulling out the person inside.  He kept the seatbelt and my grandfather some how had come to own it during the war.  Living in Washington DC many years later he presented it to the Smithsonian, and when I was little he showed it to me on display there.

Maybe this item would find its way somewhere?

I would have liked to have heard that story from your Grandfather in person...can’t imagine how fascinating that would be.  I’m sure Kerry will find the best way to preserve that artifact and continue to share it...especially with up-and-comers in the aviation world.

[aviatoreb]

37 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I would have liked to have heard that story from your Grandfather in person...can’t imagine how fascinating that would be.  I’m sure Kerry will find the best way to preserve that artifact and continue to share it...especially with up-and-comers in the aviation world.

Thanks - He was one cool dude.  :-). He was actually in the dental corps starting during the war but he really liked the Army and stayed in the reserves until the late 60s.

He was really a history buff and became an expert in the Civil War, WWI and WWII.  Growing up in the DC area, wherever we drove, he would pull over with me in some seemingly random spot and find a plaque on the side of the road and tell me the story of some battle, or march, or some other consequential event of the Civil War.  The entire area was like the page of a history book for him.

When he eventually retired he continued writing academic history papers and presenting at professional history conferences.  When I taught math at West Point, I had occasion to see him at a history conference that was at the Thayer Hotel on Post at West Point, where he presented a paper about the Zimmerman telegraph to a room full of mostly history professors - his only education was an undergrad college degree and technical training in dental - but he was a real history expert.  He also worked as a volunteer docent at several DC area museums in retirement.

My only regret is he never knew my now 16 year old youngest son who is now also a history buff and wants to grow up to be a historian.  My kid absorbs big fat history books like you couldn't believe.  When we went to Gettysburg last year and then later to Antietam, walking those fields with my son, and he knew the stories - and he was telling me what happened where as he had studied it was amazing like being a bit with my grandfather - and he was the kid knowing way more details on each hour of the battles and events in a way I never will.  My grandfather would have really gotten a kick out of my son.

Edited December 31, 2017 by aviatoreb

[MyNameIsNobody]

This thread started with an inquiry on a piece of Luftwaffe (WWII origin) aircraft skin section.  The thread morphed, which is common and then turned to political ideology.  I believe that is a No No from one that knows that is so.

My exception/challenge is that the “Swaz/Hack” symbol is bad or the weapons or uniforms were bad.  I think they represent history and many understand the importance of knowing and teaching history.  

I have a lot of Erich Hartmann/Luftwaffe memorabilia.  The planes, including Hartmann’s, had the Swaz on the tail.  It was the symbol of the political party and Germany under the Third Reich.  Hartmann’s autobiography shows a man above reproach.  He fought for his country...under an evil leadership that lives in infamy.  I can separate the man from the evil perpetrated by Nazi Germany.  Do I believe for a second that ALL Germans (Farmers, Construction Workers, Business Owners, Wives, Youth) were all racist?  Hell no.  

I fully understand NOT wanting to own German WWII memorabilia.  I get “it”.  I personally would not want any SS, SA, Police or “party” stuff.  Fighter pilot and plane stuff?  All day every day.  That said:  USA is great because freedom to have a belief...even a belief that is reprehensible is legal as long as under the rule of law.  That some disagree and say “no to all” is A.O.K. Too.

Happy New Year everybody.  May your 2018 bring health, prosperity and happiness.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I have a German 8 mm Mouser that by grandfather brought back after WWI.  He was in the Marines and walked up to a German officer trapped under his dead horse.  My grandfather spoke some German and as he walked up the officer asked my grandfather if he was going to shoot him?  My grandfather said " no, I'm just taking your rifle ".  His thoughts were it took more resources to deal with an injured soldier than a dead one.  

He disassembled it, put it in his sea bag, and brought it home with him.  He used it to deer hunt until he died, gave it to my dad who used it hunting until he could no longer hunt, then gave it to me.  I shot it as a kid but haven't shot it in 40 years.  I will likely give it to one of my nephews since neither of my sons is into hunting or guns.  

It's a really neat rifle. My grandfather pulled the saddle strap clips off it and filled the stock with some sort of filler.  It has a flip up forward "site" for long distance shooting.  I can't remember the range.  It was marked in meters but seems like it was 1,000 on the longest range mark.  My dad claimed the Germans designed that rifle so it could use American (or English) ammo, yet their ammo was just a tad too large for our rifles.  Not sure if that was true.  

I'm in Florida right now but if I was home I would have snapped a picture of this neat rifle.  

Tom

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

This thread started with an inquiry on a piece of Luftwaffe (WWII origin) aircraft skin section.  The thread morphed, which is common and then turned to political ideology.  I believe that is a No No from one that knows that is so.

My exception/challenge is that the “Swaz/Hack” symbol is bad or the weapons or uniforms were bad.  I think they represent history and many understand the importance of knowing and teaching history.  

I have a lot of Erich Hartmann/Luftwaffe memorabilia.  The planes, including Hartmann’s, had the Swaz on the tail.  It was the symbol of the political party and Germany under the Third Reich.  Hartmann’s autobiography shows a man above reproach.  He fought for his country...under an evil leadership that lives in infamy.  I can separate the man from the evil perpetrated by Nazi Germany.  Do I believe for a second that ALL Germans (Farmers, Construction Workers, Business Owners, Wives, Youth) were all racist?  Hell no.  

I fully understand NOT wanting to own German WWII memorabilia.  I get “it”.  I personally would not want any SS, SA, Police or “party” stuff.  Fighter pilot and plane stuff?  All day every day.  That said:  USA is great because freedom to have a belief...even a belief that is reprehensible is legal as long as under the rule of law.  That some disagree and say “no to all” is A.O.K. Too.

Happy New Year everybody.  May your 2018 bring health, prosperity and happiness.

When I was a teenage lineboy at the American flying club at Ludwigsburg AAF (Germany) in the 70s, the German flying club on the field hosted a fly-in and Erich Hartmann came, and even came into our club house and bought a couple of books we had in stock.  Adolf Galland also flew in with his wife and his dog in their Bonanza.    They were both very cool, nice, and easy to talk to, especially about flying.   I was totally geeking out about it, and it was the sort of thing that was lost on my friends at school.   I wish everybody had cell phones with cameras back then.

[MyNameIsNobody]

6 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I have a German 8 mm Mouser that by grandfather brought back after WWI.  He was in the Marines and walked up to a German officer trapped under his dead horse.  My grandfather spoke some German and as he walked up the officer asked my grandfather if he was going to shoot him?  My grandfather said " no, I'm just taking your rifle ".  His thoughts were it took more resources to deal with an injured soldier than a dead one.  

He disassembled it, put it in his sea bag, and brought it home with him.  He used it to deer hunt until he died, gave it to my dad who used it hunting until he could no longer hunt, then gave it to me.  I shot it as a kid but haven't shot it in 40 years.  I will likely give it to one of my nephews since neither of my sons is into hunting or guns.  

It's a really neat rifle. My grandfather pulled the saddle strap clips off it and filled the stock with some sort of filler.  It has a flip up forward "site" for long distance shooting.  I can't remember the range.  It was marked in meters but seems like it was 1,000 on the longest range mark.  My dad claimed the Germans designed that rifle so it could use American (or English) ammo, yet their ammo was just a tad too large for our rifles.  Not sure if that was true.  

I'm in Florida right now but if I was home I would have snapped a picture of this neat rifle.  

Tom

I have a Mauser K98 with a repro scope and mount.  (They look authentic, but are post-war).  Great shooter in 8MM Mauser.  I have collected some Aircrew pistols: Astra, Femaru, Browning, Mauser.  I shoot them all.  My 1940 Luger is shot sparingly...My now 90 year old neighbor had a beauty of a 1940 Luger.  All matching with holster that he acquired while a radio section sergeant with 101st.  Family got it, so I got the closest I could come by.  Jack is still sound of mind, but body is starting to fail him

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 12/30/2017 at 7:14 PM, aviatoreb said:

Yup.  Republic.  And democracy.  Constitutional republic form of democracy.

Okay.  I cannot take it anymore. 

When it comes to governments' functioning, these words have very specific meanings.  Ancient Athens was a Democracy, the USA is not.  Some colonial New England towns were Democracies, none are today.  It should be obvious that the USA is a Republic, in that we vote for representatives who vote for laws, etc.  In a Democracy, citizens vote directly for laws, tax bills, spending, etc.   A Constitutional Republic is still different in that it defines the limits of what the legislature and executive can do.  When something proves to be "Unconstitutional", it cannot be accepted as law, REGARDLESS of a majority voting for it!  The Founding Fathers saw this as the best protection of individual rights, (and they have been proven quite right!)

If you look at history, it was not until the late 1800s that anyone used the term "Democracy" to describe the US; prior to that, it was always referred to as a "Republic".  So why the change?  The people who used the term wanted to end-run the Constitution and implement majority rule.  Do you want your rights respected via the Constitution, or by a fickle majority that one time elects Obama and the next Trump?  Just remember that the next time you are tempted to slur your words and call the US a Democracy.

[aviatoreb]

45 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Okay.  I cannot take it anymore. 

Why?  Because you cannot stand to see anyone use language the same way as you?  I know all of that history and yet I understand that language changes.  The word computer used to refer to a person who spends their day computing massive problems as teams, such as at the Los Alamos project, or as we see in hidden figures recently in Hollywood's portrayal of the Apollo Project teams,

This is what a computer meant in 1945:

This is what a computer means today:

And yet you insist that I am wrong to describe our form of government with the word democracy unless it is literally the original meaning of the word as an Ancient Greek democracy.  I am sorry I do not use language as you do.  You are an originalist and I believe language grows, evolves and changes over time.  Most of all, language is for communicating and the common language is that we are a democracy associated with our right to vote.

How do you distinguish the other meanings of republic if you wish to associate only that word with our form of government? You go to Ancient Greece so I will go to Ancient Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator

"The word originated as the title of a magistrate in the Roman Republic appointed by the Senate to rule the republic in times of emergency (see Roman dictator and justitium).^[1]

^... Originally an emergency legal appointment in the Roman Republic, the term "Dictator" did not have the negative meaning it has now. A Dictator was a magistrate given sole power for a limited duration. ...."

So you declare I am wrong if I say democracy or a republic associated with elections.  Have you ever heard the phrases direct democracy and representative democracy? The operative word for me being democracy. ITs ok, I will continue to speak this way.

Edited January 3, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Andy95W]

[EricJ]

47 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

If you look at history, it was not until the late 1800s that anyone used the term "Democracy" to describe the US; prior to that, it was always referred to as a "Republic".  So why the change?  The people who used the term wanted to end-run the Constitution and implement majority rule.  Do you want your rights respected via the Constitution, or by a fickle majority that one time elects Obama and the next Trump?  Just remember that the next time you are tempted to slur your words and call the US a Democracy.

You're right.   And the US isn't a capitalist society, either.   

...runs away...

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

20 minutes ago, EricJ said:

And the US isn't a capitalist society, either.  

I agree 100%.  It is a mix of Capitalist and Socialist elements.

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I agree 100%.  It is a mix of Capitalist and Socialist elements.

...and some communism thrown in here and there, too.

But these things are true of almost any country. 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

56 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Why?  Because you cannot stand to see anyone use language the same way as you?  I know all of that history and yet I understand that language changes.  The word computer used to refer to a person who spends their day computing massive problems as teams, such as at the Los Alamos project, or as we see in hidden figures recently in Hollywood's portrayal of the Apollo Project teams,

This is what a computer meant in 1945:

This is what a computer means today:

And yet you insist that I am wrong to describe our form of government with the word democracy unless it is literally the original meaning of the word as an Ancient Greek democracy.  I am sorry I do not use language as you do.  You are an originalist and I believe language grows, evolves and changes over time.  Most of all, language is for communicating and the common language is that we are a democracy associated with our right to vote.

How do you distinguish the other meanings of republic if you wish to associate only that word with our form of government? You go to Ancient Greece so I will go to Ancient Rome:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictator

"The word originated as the title of a magistrate in the Roman Republic appointed by the Senate to rule the republic in times of emergency (see Roman dictator and justitium).^[1]

^... Originally an emergency legal appointment in the Roman Republic, the term "Dictator" did not have the negative meaning it has now. A Dictator was a magistrate given sole power for a limited duration. ...."

So you declare I am wrong if I say democracy or a republic associated with elections.  Have you ever heard the phrases direct democracy and representative democracy? The operative word for me being democracy. ITs ok, I will continue to speak this way.

I never said you were wrong, I hinted at what slurring words accomplishes.  If that is your intent, let us be clear about it.

 

 

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I agree 100%.  It is a mix of Capitalist and Socialist elements.

I agree too!  We are a hybrid - and this form of hybrid economy, with various degrees of the mix, is true in most/all western societies.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I never said you were wrong, I hinted at what slurring words accomplishes.  If that is your intent, let us be clear about it.

We're just having fun.  At least I am - I hope you are having fun too.