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Tragic Cessna 340 crash in Florida


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https://www.cbsnews.com/news/deadly-plane-crash-florida-victims-identified/

I read this tragic story today and couldn’t help but be bothered by the statements made by the sheriff of Polk County. One of the things that irritates me to no end is listening to people talk, with authority, about subjects they don’t know much about. Politicians and public officials are real good at doing this.  

Without knowing anything about the pilot or type of flight such as IFR or VFR, at least he doesn’t say he does, he makes a statement like this...

"I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning. The airport was totally socked in with fog," Judd said. "This aircraft attempted to takeoff from the south to the north on the main runway, and for reasons unknown, crashed at the north end of the airport, not far from our aviation hangar."

Now I realize that odds are pilot error however, without knowing more of the FACTS, I believe it is a very ignorant statement to make and somewhat disrespectful to the pilot and his family.  But what do I know? I wasn’t there either. 

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He did say a few seconds later that he wanted to re  run time and hold the pilot down to stop him getting into his plane.  I read him as someone deeply upset that this had happened and also close to his hangar so possibly he knew the guy.  
Very tragic.
 

Indeed, the Sheriff Judd knew the pilot very well:
"Judd said he has personally known John Shannon, the President of the Republican Club of Lakeland, for years. Shannon had filed a flight plan this morning to fly to Key West for an apparent Christmas Eve day trip."

In one video, I thought I recall Judd saying he had a hangar near where the crash occurred too. But regardless I also remember him saying he knew the pilot for many years, as in more than decades, and we also know that the pilot was licensed in 2010 per the news. But can't really trust the news at this point as that could have merely been just the last recorded update to his certificate. Anyway, if all true, I got the impression Judd viewed the pilot as a less experienced pilot. If true that only 7 years from private to Cessna 340 with very busy career is pretty fast for a recreational pilot.


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According to the FAA website the PIC had a MEL and instrument rating.  Last update says 2010 which we know means nothing as far as when it was issued. Reports say a flight plan had been filed so can we assume it was an instrument flight plan?

I think my contention is the sheriff making a statement like "I have reviewed some footage, and clearly no one should have tried a takeoff from this airport at 7:15 this morning. The airport was totally socked in with fog.” Statements like these definitely don’t help General Aviation.  I realize we all have different comfort levels as to when we might depart on an IFR flight but to say “clearly no one should have tried to take off from this airport...” is a bit shortsighted absent Sheriff Grady being an aviation expert.  

I would venture to guess many near 0/0 departures are made each and every day in this country from Cessna 172s to Airbus A380s without problem.  Now we can argue the merits of whether that’s a wise decision to make in a single or twin engine aircraft because of the ol’ “What if your engine fails?” argument but then it really has nothing to do with pilot’s flying ability and maybe more with his/her decision making or risk evaluation which, let’s face it, is a sliding scale for everyone.  Flying day VFR carries more risk than just staying on the ground.

Some guys don’t fly at night in a SE airplane. I fly SE IFR in my Mooney and VFR helicopter at night all the time.  I know the risk, I train for it and I’m okay with it.  

I just don’t appreciate the ignorant statements made by people in position of authority when they clearly are no authority on the subject.  My mother and probably my wife would probably blindly believe the guy because “he’s the sheriff and he must know what he’s talking about.”  But I think my wife is getting better about this I point out the BS all the time. And the media certainly doesn’t help by blindly regurgitating what government officials say without fact checking their statements.  End of rant.

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Sheriff Grady loves to be on TV and will say just about anything to do so. While a 0/0 TO is not illegal for GA ops, it is not the smartest thing to do as most of us know. Perhaps if he worded it a bit differently like "I have reviewed some footage, and believe it was foolish to attempt to take off with the airport totally socked in with fog" that might have been more palatable for you. Bottom line here, the pilot did exercise poor ADM in his decision to leave with absolutely no outs, and it bit him and his innocent passengers. There is no forced march in GA. and safety should be the priority, not the get there itis. The Sherrif's statement doesnt help GA, but the accident is what the problem is, not his statement about it. The accident is what give GA a bad reputation.

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Just some context - for the life of GA where people react as if flying an airplane smaller than an airbus is crazy and there is a screw loose in anyone who does it...

And this same reaction comes from people around here many of whom do things that I would not do and I find them to be much more dangerous and scary to me.

1) Snowmobiles - especially over frozen lakes.  Snowmobiles go 100mph and every year in this state we read stories about people nearby who died either by crashing into a tree or breaking through a frozen lake where there was a thin spot.

2) ATV's....crash into cars (driven on streets which is illegal), or crash into trees, or simply tip over into ditches.

3) Hunting - people seem to be constantly accidentally shooting each other.

I don 't begrudge any of those people for doing those activities, but ... not for me.  (P.S. my knock on hunting was not to be a anti gun something so lets not go there....I was just saying that I keep reading in the paper of two buddies going into the woods hunting and one of them accidentally shoots the other thinking it was a deer or something).

..and yet people are mostly fine with those activities and the risk associated with it, as am I, for others.

(Runner up activities, jet ski, speed boat, canoe (yup), bicycles (I do that a lot - yikes), skate board, roller skates, bath tubs, sky diving ...well sky divers are crazy).

Edited by aviatoreb
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I’ll add to the list- motorcycles, hang gliding, downhill skiing...

heres a plus one for safety- I’d be interested in crunching the numbers for GA holiday travel fatalities vs holiday travel auto fatalities (on a percentage basis)... I bet GA comes in safer...

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6 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I’ll add to the list- motorcycles, hang gliding, downhill skiing...

heres a plus one for safety- I’d be interested in crunching the numbers for GA holiday travel fatalities vs holiday travel auto fatalities (on a percentage basis)... I bet GA comes in safer...

Right - I missed those.

And....SMOKING....  and eating big bags of Doritos and other trans-fats products while sitting on the couch and watching tv all day kills more Americans every day than a lot of other activities.  But couch surfing rarely makes the news with a local Sherif standing at a news conference saying in disapproving tones, "well he was sitting on the couch when we found him and there were bags of Doritos and cheese whiz everywhere."

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Lets remember that these folks were just going to the Keys for lunch.  Had they delayed an hour or two they'd probably all still be alive.  What kind of catastrophic malfunction kills a twin at the end of the runway?

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. just because its legal doesn't make it smart.   I truly hope you guys aren' t routinely making 0/0 takeoffs.  

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36 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

Critical Engine failure, they roll over extremely fast

Which you're supposed to train for and be able to do.  Probably a lot easier if you aren't taking off into peas soup.  That said, critical engine failures on takeoff are rare as hen's teeth.  Pilots loosing it in IMC are somewhat less so.

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2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Sheriff Grady loves to be on TV and will say just about anything to do so. While a 0/0 TO is not illegal for GA ops, it is not the smartest thing to do as most of us know. Perhaps if he worded it a bit differently like "I have reviewed some footage, and believe it was foolish to attempt to take off with the airport totally socked in with fog" that might have been more palatable for you. Bottom line here, the pilot did exercise poor ADM in his decision to leave with absolutely no outs, and it bit him and his innocent passengers. There is no forced march in GA. and safety should be the priority, not the get there itis. The Sherrif's statement doesnt help GA, but the accident is what the problem is, not his statement about it. The accident is what give GA a bad reputation.

Mike:

I am not 100% certain, but I believe the rules are a little different here in Canada.  Min T/O vis is 2600' (even for IFR departures) unless some exceptional requirements have been met - for authorised operators only (ie:  not Private Pilots).

Again - not an instructor and I could be wrong.  Just checked the CAP-Gen.

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I pulled up the METAR... (which stops at 7:15)  it was .15mile vis with 300f VV. so 800ft visibility stable with calm winds.  

24 07:15 Calm 0.15 Fog OVC003 54 NA NA NA NA 30.18 NA
24 06:55 Calm 0.15 Fog OVC003 55 NA NA NA NA 30.18 NA
24 06:35 Calm 0.15 Fog OVC003 55 NA NA NA NA 30.17 NA

There are no alternate takeoff minimums for that airport, so part 135 is 1 mile vis. 

In the US part 91 can leave zero/zero, but I would not begrudge a layman in observing that the weather was very low. 

 

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

Lets remember that these folks were just going to the Keys for lunch.  Had they delayed an hour or two they'd probably all still be alive.  What kind of catastrophic malfunction kills a twin at the end of the runway?

Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. just because its legal doesn't make it smart.   I truly hope you guys aren' t routinely making 0/0 takeoffs.  

The dozen or so times I've had zero/zero conditions at my home field or visiting fields I delay or cancel the flight.  Often it's early morning spring or fall at my home drone.

 

-Seth

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3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

This was not a 0/0 takeoff, 1/4 mile using automated equipment, and apparently enough visibility for someone to make a video, with no wind or turbulence to worry about.
There is a hundred things that could of gone wrong, reduce visibility could be just 1 of many factors

I dont believe I said it was a 0/ takeoff, rather I said a 0/0 takeoff was legal for GA (and I do stand corrected that it may not be outside the USA)

Here is what I said. 

5 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Sheriff Grady loves to be on TV and will say just about anything to do so. While a 0/0 TO is not illegal for GA ops, it is not the smartest thing to do as most of us know. Perhaps if he worded it a bit differently like "I have reviewed some footage, and believe it was foolish to attempt to take off with the airport totally socked in with fog" that might have been more palatable for you. Bottom line here, the pilot did exercise poor ADM in his decision to leave with absolutely no outs, and it bit him and his innocent passengers. There is no forced march in GA. and safety should be the priority, not the get there itis. The Sherrif's statement doesnt help GA, but the accident is what the problem is, not his statement about it. The accident is what give GA a bad reputation.

I also just heard this morning the plane, while being kept in meticulous shape, had just underwent some maintenance. I dont know how true this is, but I heard it. I am sure the NTSB will sort it all out.

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I just spent a week in a KingAir simulator and did at least 15 engine failures on rotation, (V1 Cuts).  I did not crash once, but I am a 4000+ hour ATP with over 500 hours in type.  I would give someone with less experience about a 65% chance of crashing on the first go.

Concerning spatial disorientation; I would give someone with that 85% chance of crashing by the end of the runway.

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26 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I just spent a week in a KingAir simulator and did at least 15 engine failures on rotation, (V1 Cuts).  I did not crash once, but I am a 4000+ hour ATP with over 500 hours in type.  I would give someone with less experience about a 65% chance of crashing on the first go.

Concerning spatial disorientation; I would give someone with that 85% chance of crashing by the end of the runway.

Yep.

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Most likely this accident was due to an engine failure on takeoff. No matter how well trained you are your are limited by the plane performance. The best you can do is two kill both engines and crash straight ahead. Very hard to maintain control at Vmc at 200ft AGL with 5 onboard and full fuel.

José

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Glad you got that all figured out. Let the NTSB know. If you have ever flown a Twin cessna you rotate after blue line. Not that he didn’t lose an engine and lose control. But the plane will perform if loaded and flown correctly by a professional pilot. 

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16 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Glad you got that all figured out. Let the NTSB know. If you have ever flown a Twin cessna you rotate after blue line. Not that he didn’t lose an engine and lose control. But the plane will perform if loaded and flown correctly by a professional pilot. 

So what is a professional pilot?

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Indeed, the Sheriff Judd knew the pilot very well:
"Judd said he has personally known John Shannon, the President of the Republican Club of Lakeland, for years. Shannon had filed a flight plan this morning to fly to Key West for an apparent Christmas Eve day trip."

In one video, I thought I recall Judd saying he had a hangar near where the crash occurred too. But regardless I also remember him saying he knew the pilot for many years, as in more than decades, and we also know that the pilot was licensed in 2010 per the news. But can't really trust the news at this point as that could have merely been just the last recorded update to his certificate. Anyway, if all true, I got the impression Judd viewed the pilot as a less experienced pilot. If true that only 7 years from private to Cessna 340 with very busy career is pretty fast for a recreational pilot.


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Not very fast at all really. One could be in a 340 in 100 hours. They are a good plane.


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21 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Glad you got that all figured out. Let the NTSB know. If you have ever flown a Twin cessna you rotate after blue line. Not that he didn’t lose an engine and lose control. But the plane will perform if loaded and flown correctly by a professional pilot. 

You mean the plane won't perform if loaded and flown correctly by it's owner, who does something besides flying other people's planes for a living? How does the plane know who is flying it?

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