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Sensorcon Inspector CO Detector Endorsement


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Alan,

Discussion at the Summit covered the calibration question...  Mr. Elliot probably knows the details...

I just don't remember the details...

Something like...

1) The calibration doesn't drift very much...

2) It can be sent in for calibration...

3) A calibration set was going to be acquired to be used at future Summits...  good reason to be in Florida next fall...

 

Again, this is a fuzzy, inaccurate, old memory, but worth sharing...

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, amillet said:

To those of you who have a Sensorcon, do you have it calibrated periodically as recommended?  I have not yet done so and I’ve had mine for at least 1 1/2 years.  

As I understand it, after two years without calibration you will get an EOL warning at start up and then the unit will function normally. Without calibration they can wander in accuracy up to 10% every 6 months. 

Anthony is correct. The Summit purchased calibration equipment.  Free calibrations when you attend Mooney Summit VI.  One of the many benefits to attending.

I’m thinking about bringing calibration equipment to Airventure 2018, for at least part of the week. 

Cheers, 

Dan

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8 hours ago, amillet said:

To those of you who have a Sensorcon, do you have it calibrated periodically as recommended?  I have not yet done so and I’ve had mine for at least 1 1/2 years.  

While its a bit of a way to come from WA (you wouldn't be the first, however), it is another reason to come to the Mooney SUmmit, we have purchased a calibration kit from Sensorcon and offer free calibration to our attendees. Just another deliverable....

EDIT

OPPS, I see this has already been answered

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6 hours ago, DanM20C said:

As I understand it, after two years without calibration you will get an EOL warning at start up and then the unit will function normally. Without calibration they can wander in accuracy up to 10% every 6 months. 

Anthony is correct. The Summit purchased calibration equipment.  Free calibrations when you attend Mooney Summit VI.  One of the many benefits to attending.

I’m thinking about bringing calibration equipment to Airventure 2018, for at least part of the week. 

Cheers, 

Dan

Dan, do you need our system? (BTW, never did see the credit from Caleb on the larger tank) I am sure Ron can work it out with you. Keep in mind, his in laws live in Sheboygan so transportation shouldnt be an issue.

Just let him our I know and we can see about getting it to you if you dont already have it in your possession.

 

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10 hours ago, amillet said:

To those of you who have a Sensorcon, do you have it calibrated periodically as recommended?  I have not yet done so and I’ve had mine for at least 1 1/2 years.  

I had mine recalibrated at the Mooney Summit at the end of September. Think I bought it right after Dan recommended them. Haven't seen a reading above 5 yet, that was in my truck just after starting it to leave work (parked there all day, a nice cold start). In the Mooney, it's usually 0 but has gone as high as 3. Need to buy some velcro and mount it to the panel, I don't check it often in my lap.

Really, I should bring it home as it will be cold enough again next week to light the gas logs. Yesterday and today, the first two days of Winter, temps are in the upper 60s but Christmas Day will only reach mid-40s before cooling to freezing overnight.

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4 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Fantastic report.

On the declaring part, what extra follow-up comes from that? Any phone calls? Paperwork to deal with?

Great question.

i expect that I get a call from the FAA after the holidays to ensure that I didn’t take an unairworthy airplane airborne before appropriate maintenance actions were effected. This is a supposition on my part, based on the experience I had earlier this year after an emergency involving a gear issue. The gentleman from the FSDO was a pleasure to work with, but he did ask for documentation of all my quals and currencies, as well as some of the maintenance records on the airplane. He also asked for a written statement from both me and my mechanic after repairs were made. Not an unpleasant experience, but a little time consuming.

Dont let that discourage you from declaring an emergency if you need (or could use) assistance or need traffic priority. In this recent case, I declared as soon as I realized I had an unresolvable problem and needed to get on the ground ASAP. As it turned out, Memphis Center was able to vector me direct to the field as I descended through a solid overcast from 6,000’ down to 1,500’, when I’m pretty sure their MVA in that sector is around 2,500’. They couldn’t have worked that without an emergency declaration. My ATC wingman also queried me on my progress, which helped keep me focused on flying the airplane and would have been a real help if something else would have happened.

So to answer your question, yes, I expect to participate in some follow-up from the FAA. Would I do it the same way again? ABSOLUTELY.

i also filed an ASRS report (NASA Form for us old guys) just in case I did something that might raise more questions from the FAA. I didn’t, but it is no-cost insurance in the event that there is potential violation or certificate action.

Cheers,

Rick

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16 minutes ago, Hank said:

Need to buy some velcro and mount it to the panel, I don't check it often in my lap.

I had mine clipped to my shoulder belt in the middle of my chest. I both felt the vibration and heard the tones when it alerted, even through my Bose A20s and the jacket I was wearing. Velcroed to the panel is probably optimum if you have the space as the flashing red lights should get your attention quickly.

 

Cheers,

Rick

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On 12/19/2017 at 7:12 AM, bradp said:

- did you open up all the vents after it alarmed?

Sorry Brad, missed this question. I didn’t initially open the vents. I was trying to see if I could stop the rise and isolate where the problem was, but once it hit 98PPM the troubleshooting was over and the vents came open. With the numbers still climbing, I pulled the throttle and leaned the mixture (I was at 34/2400 and full rich for the climb) to try to reduce the CO production. The numbers started coming down when I did that, and I didn’t look at the detector again.

Cheers,

Rick

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6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Dan, do you need our system? (BTW, never did see the credit from Caleb on the larger tank) I am sure Ron can work it out with you. Keep in mind, his in laws live in Sheboygan so transportation shouldnt be an issue.

Just let him our I know and we can see about getting it to you if you dont already have it in your possession.

 

Thanks Mike.  I think it would be best to keep the Summit's equipment on site in Panama City.  One less thing to worry about in preparation for the Summits. 

I'll get in touch will Calen and remind him of the mix up.

6 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I have to say the best CO detector I have used was last week. The display was tied to the G1000NXI. Its only problem is its expense for a CO detector, $789,000. Did I mention it also includes a new Mooney M20V?

I'm assuming it's a built in Guardian detector that interfaces with the G1000NXI?  

Don't forget the Guardian Avionics is also offering a 20% discount.  Code: coaware

Maybe that code will work with a new Acclaim? :) 

 

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7 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

I have to say the best CO detector I have used was last week. The display was tied to the G1000NXI. Its only problem is its expense for a CO detector, $789,000. Did I mention it also includes a new Mooney M20V?

I told Glennie that it would be a good idea for us to upgrade to that CO detector, for safety reasons of course. She told me to keep my Sensorcon.

Cheers,
Rick

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I also have the sensorcon detector, and have found it handy.  I've yet to register anything over 50, but i've seen it go from nothing to 40 real quick sitting on the ground at idle.  Playing around with the vents, i discovered that with the main fresh air vents sealed, air wants to come in through the nose wheel well control pass-throughs, and this can admit exhaust if the wind is right.

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42 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

I also have the sensorcon detector, and have found it handy.  I've yet to register anything over 50, but i've seen it go from nothing to 40 real quick sitting on the ground at idle.  Playing around with the vents, i discovered that with the main fresh air vents sealed, air wants to come in through the nose wheel well control pass-throughs, and this can admit exhaust if the wind is right.

Thanks ShuRugal! You reminded me that I had closed the overhead vents toward the end of the first sortie with my Dad as it was getting a bit cool. Ironically I don't like to use the cabin heat unless absolutely necessary out of concern for CO infiltration, and I have always flown with the overhead vents open. I didn't open the vents again until after the CO alert, so maybe...

One more thing to check during ground ops and on the functional check flight. I'm planning to retrieve the airplane on the 26th, I'll let y'all know how it goes. I may have a major cockpit sealing activity in my near future.

Cheers,
Rick

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10 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

While its a bit of a way to come from WA (you wouldn't be the first, however), it is another reason to come to the Mooney SUmmit, we have purchased a calibration kit from Sensorcon and offer free calibration to our attendees. Just another deliverable....

EDIT

OPPS, I see this has already been answered

We have made the FL to WA trip once.  Bought the plane in Ft. Lauderdale and flew it home in Feb. 2005.  The coast hugging route was to avoid winter crossing of the Rockies.  24 hours flight time.

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All you high altitude oxygen sipping mooney drivers know that carbon monixide high in your blood won’t show up on your pulse oximeter right?  You could be with a high percent carboxyhemoglobin in your blood but the pulse ox could still show 100% - it’s sneaky like that. 

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44 minutes ago, bradp said:

All you high altitude oxygen sipping mooney drivers know that carbon monixide high in your blood won’t show up on your pulse oximeter right?  You could be with a high percent carboxyhemoglobin in your blood but the pulse ox could still show 100% - it’s sneaky like that. 

Yes indeed. With the rarified atmosphere at altitude, its even more important to have a reliable CO detector to prompt immediate action if things go south on the CO front. Here's a study that supports and illustrates Brad's assertion. http://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)33003-3/pdf

Cheers,
Rick

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On 12/23/2017 at 10:34 PM, Junkman said:

Yes indeed. With the rarified atmosphere at altitude, its even more important to have a reliable CO detector to prompt immediate action if things go south on the CO front. Here's a study that supports and illustrates Brad's assertion. http://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)33003-3/pdf

Cheers,
Rick

I've always heard that CO isn't detected by pulse oximeters, and was surprised hearing Dan speak at the Summit on how difficult it was for the hospital to detect in his blood even though after several hours when he mentioned they should test for it, his CO level was ~30%.

P.S.--that study was way over my head (except the summary at the beginning), but the discussion about how the pulse oximeter works on p.3 was interesting. It's probably not much worse than many engineering studies appear to non-technical types, though.

Edited by Hank
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6 hours ago, Hank said:

Dan speak at the Summit on how difficult it was for the hospital to detect in his blood even though after several hours when he mentioned they should test for it, his CO level was ~30%.

5 hrs after the crash was when they tested my blood. It was around 13-14%.  It’s half life is around 4-5hrs when breathing normal air.  A good part of that time I was breathing 100% oxygen. So they guessed I was 30%+ at the time of the accident. 

 

17 hours ago, bradp said:

All you high altitude oxygen sipping mooney drivers know that carbon monixide high in your blood won’t show up on your pulse oximeter right?  You could be with a high percent carboxyhemoglobin in your blood but the pulse ox could still show 100% - it’s sneaky like that. 

On the first leg of the day I checked my pulse Ox  at altitude (10K) and noticed my levels were slightly higher than normal. This of course was due to the CO(I had no idea at the time). The pulse ox sees the oxygen and CO as the same. Being CO has such a strong bond with the hemoglobin the pulse ox reading goes up. It is sneaky.

I urge every Mooney driver to carry a pulse OX.  Not just the oxygen sipping guys.  After a few flights with my pulse ox in my C I purchased a portable Oxygen system. It was alarming how low my sats were at times, under 12.5K.  The FAA O2 requirements are not conservative at all. 

Cheers, 

Dan

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2 hours ago, DanM20C said:

I urge every Mooney driver to carry a pulse OX.  Not just the oxygen sipping guys.  After a few flights with my pulse ox in my C I purchased a portable Oxygen system. It was alarming how low my sats were at times, under 12.5K.  The FAA O2 requirements are not conservative at all. 

I distinctly recall a flight this summer - eclipse day- where I went to 11.5 to top the CLT bravo and get away from the traffic gaggle and noticed I had digital cyanosis.  I imagine my SpO2 was something In the low mid 80s.  I had been up that high without similar signs of hypoxia before and realized that it was probably pressure altitude.  

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A passenger asked me the other day whether the Sensorcom readings are altitude dependent.   It says it's reading ppm, but I don't know whether a person's sensitivity to a particular ppm goes up or down with altitude or stays the same, or whether the sensor reading itself has any altitude dependence.   Does anybody know?

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1 hour ago, EricJ said:

A passenger asked me the other day whether the Sensorcom readings are altitude dependent.   It says it's reading ppm, but I don't know whether a person's sensitivity to a particular ppm goes up or down with altitude or stays the same, or whether the sensor reading itself has any altitude dependence.   Does anybody know?

 

That's a great question.

I did a quick search on "carbon monoxide detection as a function of altitude" and came across this study on altitude effects on CO absorption and presentation of symptoms: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwj93L6Uz6XYAhWGeSYKHYEsCtkQFggpMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nfpa.org%2F~%2Fmedia%2Ffiles%2Fnews-and-research%2Fresources%2Fresearch-foundation%2Fresearch-foundation-reports%2Fdetection-and-signaling%2Frfimpactaltitudecotoxicology.pdf%3Fla%3Den&usg=AOvVaw3Sg4-AK1ZPdMhJ7dkcNCMq

To cut to the chase, the study supports the premise that the same concentration of CO at altitude will have a greater impact on you than it will at sea level. The Sensorcon does not adjust for altitude, and that means that that the PPM risk level parameters change with altitude. A lower PPM count at altitude will hurt you more than that same PPM count at sea level. Here's a quote from the study:

"Conclusion: For a given exposure to the same partial pressure of CO, persons at altitude will exhibit a greater rise as well as steady state value of COHb levels than similar persons at sea level. Acute symptoms for a particular level of blood COHb also seem to be magnified at altitude, whether this translates to a greater risk of death is unknown. It is therefore clear that guidelines for CO exposure at sea level are not well suited to elevated environments."

There is a lot of interesting and educational data in the study for those so inclined.

Cheers,
Rick

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