ATC story today

[jaylw314]

8 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Niner Two Niner Papa Golf (my F model Mooney)

Niner Niner Four Papa Tango (my IVPT)

I struggle with tree ( for 3) and fife ( for 5) but always use Niner for my nines.  Love the way "Niner" rolls off the tongue.   

Tom

1999W sucks to say on the radio 

[M016576]

59 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

A bad vector indeed, especially now with the benefit of hindsight. But also a delayed response to an immediate turn instruction. I guess who you blame depends on your perspective. The Cessna pilot and passenger who died seem the least culpable of all to me, however, inspite of the fact that he wasn’t talking to ATC and probably also hadn’t filed a flight plan.  An absolutely terrible situation for all involved.

I find that I have very little chance of spotting reported traffic unless it is inside of two miles of my position.  And that is generally relatively slow flying GA traffic that is painted white with color accents. I doubt I would ever spot a fast flying camouflaged fighter that was facing me head on.  

 

 

There is a simulated video out there, and I don’t know if I saw it through the military safety program, or if it was a civilian source, but it shows the midair from the F-16 pilots perspective using his inflight data recorder and overlays the instrument panel on top of the simulated collision. 

I’ll cut to the chase- the Cessna, because it was climbing, was below the nose/glareshield of the viper.  The controller turned the pilot into the course of the Cessna, instead of away from it.  If he had executed the turn immediately, he would have barely flown in front of the Cessna.  If the controller had turned the viper the other way... or not issued a turn at all, no impact would have happened.  Ultimately, the NTSB determined it was a controller error that caused this midair... the Cessna pilot never saw the viper, the viper pilot didn’t see the Cessna until it had climbed through its altitude (and mind you, he was being handled under IFR).. he tried to maneuver away, but it was too late.

its sad.  The whole event should have never occurred... but a compounding of errors on the parts of three individuals all yielded this result.

Edited December 23, 2017 by M016576

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

1999W sucks to say on the radio 

I think the N number should be a prime consideration when buying a plane   I flew a plane in training which was ___NH. November Hotel is almost a tongue twister. I just got lucky when I bought 231AT. Alpha Tango does flow.

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

  I listened to the tape of the controller tell him to turn several times urgently and he didn’t comply until 30? seconds or so later just before impact.

This is why I have a problem with the F-16 pilot.

[MB65E]

Here is that NTSB video of the Viper crash. Not a lot of time either way... no matter who's fault it actually was. Sucks. 

-Matt

 

[ragedracer1977]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

This is why I have a problem with the F-16 pilot.

Is the NTSB video misleading?  It shows him turn left almost immediately.  Within a second or 2.  

[M016576]

1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Is the NTSB video misleading?  It shows him turn left almost immediately.  Within a second or 2.  

Yep.  The controller gives a “Traffic, 2 Miles” call in the first transmission , but doesn’t issue the turn until the second call... and she picks the wrong direction.  Hard to know how clearly the F-16 pilot heard that initial call as well, as he asked for clarification “confirm 2 Miles?”.  We hear the controllers recorder- not that reception in the F-16’s cockpit.  The viper pilot is on an IFR vector.  The better vector for traffic avoidance is pretty obvious to me (at 1g, 0 knots) when you look at the gods eye view faux radar display in the upper corner of the video as all this is going on.

each of us brings predisposition to this event. As a GA pilot, I identify with the C-150 pilot and try to think of how I could have avoided a situation like this.

as a military, IFR pilot, I do the same.

im not a controller- so the best I can do is say what I think would need to happen to fix the problem, and where I see the error.

but, based on what I’m looking at and seeing and hearing, I find it hard to pin the blame on the viper pilot, although some seem to want to.

 

[Marauder]

Yep.  The controller gives a “Traffic, 2 Miles” call in the first transmission , but doesn’t issue the turn until the second call... and she picks the wrong direction.  Hard to know how clearly the F-16 pilot heard that initial call as well, as he asked for clarification “confirm 2 Miles?”.  We hear the controllers recorder- not that reception in the F-16’s cockpit.  The viper pilot is on an IFR vector.  The better vector for traffic avoidance is pretty obvious to me (at 1g, 0 knots) when you look at the gods eye view faux radar display in the upper corner of the video as all this is going on.
each of us brings predisposition to this event. As a GA pilot, I identify with the C-150 pilot and try to think of how I could have avoided a situation like this.
as a military, IFR pilot, I do the same.
im not a controller- so the best I can do is say what I think would need to happen to fix the problem, and where I see the error.
but, based on what I’m looking at and seeing and hearing, I find it hard to pin the blame on the viper pilot, although some seem to want to.
 

Maybe a stupid question, but don’t our fighter jets have radar to detect aircraft?


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[Bob - S50]

17 hours ago, peevee said:

For the system to work everyone gets screwed a little once in awhile. Otherwise everyone gets screwed all the time...

On the other hand, if there is a midair because neither party saw the other then they both lose.  There is right and legal and then there is smart and safe.  If you are approaching a MOA, just ask ATC if it is 'in use' or 'hot' at the moment.  If it is, avoid it laterally or vertically.  If it's cold, feel free to blast through it.

[Andy95W]

The C150 in question wasn't in a MOA.  The F-16 was on an IR training route which are barely noticeable on charts.

[M016576]

Just now, Andy95W said:

The C150 in question wasn't in a MOA.  The F-16 was on an IR training route which are barely noticeable on charts.

I’m pretty sure he was on a vector for an ILS...

[M016576]

57 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Maybe a stupid question, but don’t our fighter jets have radar to detect aircraft?


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Yes, that’s a question I don’t know the answer to.  Any time I get a traffic pointout, I center my radar around that spot.  If I’m on an instrument approach, I typically keep the radar in an “auto acquisition” mode centered on the nose, so it will auto lock anything in front of me. I’ve never flown an F-16, so I can’t say why this pilot didn’t get a radar lock... maybe in the Navigation mode his a/a radar modes don’t work, or maybe his radar was broken, or maybe he was being complacent because he was under IFR control.. could be any of them, or all... I don’t really know.

[Andy95W]

15 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I’m pretty sure he was on a vector for an ILS...

I was mistaken, thanks for clarifying.

[M016576]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The NTSB report says that the F16’s tactical radar can’t effectively track a target as slow as the Cessna, and that the F16 pilot’s radar was tracking another target 20 miles away instead of the Cessna, which is probably why he asked ATC to verify the 2 mile traffic warning.  I don’t think the F16 pilot realized the urgency of the situation until it was too late, which is also why when he did turn he used the autopilot and standard rate. The perfect storm ...

That would make sense- mechanically scanned pulse Doppler radars have difficulty tracking slow targets with a beam aspect... they “hide” in the Doppler clutter/notch.

[thinwing]

On 12/21/2017 at 5:49 PM, M016576 said:

This post I’m writing is for your information only- as I’ve spent quite a lot of time flying in the MOA’s on the west coast.... as I fly fighters out here- first in the Navy, our of Lemoore, then out of China Lake.. and now out of Klamath Falls in the ANG.

We’re you in 2508, or were you up by Redding?  Mt. Shasta isn’t in a MOA, or really close to any of them.  If you were in 2508, I recommend flying directly up highway 395 when In the mooney.  We (the fighter pilots that operate in 2508) are briefed to be extremely careful around 395, due to the VFR traffic there- personally, I’d stick to the eastern side of the airspace when I was flying F-18’s- far less civilian traffic there.

2508 has tons of fighter jet traffic.  Whitmore is pretty deserted.  

No fighter jet (I don’t consider a t-38 a fighter) in the inventory has ADSB of any flavor- and they won’t show up on your ADSB devices.  So if you only see 2 T-38’s flying by in a hot moa- you might not see the 15 fighters flying a defensive counter air mission directly above you.

Most fighters don’t use VHF, although they do have the capability.  They typically use UHF frequencies.. controllers can hear both simultaneously and simulcast on both frequencies.  You may hear a controller talking to a military fighter jet, but you probably won’t hear their response.  F-16’s used to have a VHF only #2 radio, but those have mainly been replaced with the ARC-210- which is dual UHF/VHF.

if you’re ever intercepted by a fighter, they will try to reach you first on VHF guard (121.5).  If you see a fighter flying nearby, putting out flares, rocking his wings, dial up 121.5 and listen for instructions.  If you see one fighter jet trying to get your attention, there is a second one somewhere behind you.

you can certainly fly VFR through a hot MOA.  When VFR traffic is flying through our MOA’s, we try to set a deconfliction boundary with that traffic.  Typically that is an altitude restriction or a lateral restriction.  Sometimes, the VFR target “sneaks” into the airspace: ie- it flys along the border, then makes a sharp turn into the MOA.  When that happens, it may result in “knocking off” an entire simulated war, to re-establish new “training rules” (ie, set a floor/boundary).  That costs time and tax payer money... for some of our larger fights- 30,000lbs of jet fuel is burned collectively just to set up the fight, so It frustrates us, as fighter pilots to lose that time/gas.  Everyone that I fly with, though, understands that VFR traffic is allowed to fly through moa’s.

It can be dangerous if the fighter pilots don’t see you, or know you’re there.  When we fly BFM, we take precautions to “clear” a 10nm area with our eyes and radars, but if we miss your plane for some reason, our jets are rapidly losing and gaining altitude... and varying our turns and speed very quickly.  We are also visually focused entirely on the other jet- so, big sky theory aside, their is an increased risk of a midair for all parties.

I don’t know if T-38’s use victor radios(VHF), I trained in the T-45.  If it was the two T-38 pilots, then when you talk to the base, use the term “exceptionally unprofessional.”  That will get their attention.  You can bet that those two guys won’t make that mistake again (suggesting to violate a civilian for flying in a MOA).  If they were in my squadron, they would be benched for at least a week for that kind of behavior.  

Safe flying

edit:  Newer T-38’s (T-38C) have both UHF and VHF radios, the older ones (T-38A) are UHF only.

Thanks "mO"for all the useful info...re adsB traffic...I am referring to adsB "in"..,if the t-38 shows on Oaklands screens than I "see "it also as traffic broadcast to my adsB in.Since as you say they aren't equipped adsB they can't see me.Im pretty sure it was one of the t-38 pilots that made the comment as I heard them working NorCal when they took off from Beale.While I was transiting Beales airspace , I had received several vectors to avoid them which I complied with as required.Of course ,no way to prove one way or the other ,but the voice sure sounded the same.My point is ,it is shared airspace but I've lately noticed a "presumed owner ship " regarding MOA s in general...not only by a few controllers and military pilots but civilian pilots as well.Staying completely out of a MOA is fine if that course works for you and you have fuel sufficient to deviate.Looking at the Sectional you can see when adding up the foot print of the China and wentworth Moas you are talking a huge area.My issue was a vector taking me a little to close to Mt Lassen with a strong westerly subjecting me to downstream turbulence and roter.Of course the controller didn't realize the effect of this unnecessary vector.I once refused a hold centered over a vor with a big red cell parked over it,given by a Canadian controller.We negotiated a present position hold just as the other traffic canceled IFR which canceled the need for the hold.It all worked out ..just communicate your needs..this controller was under the impression he could vector me out and I had no choice in the matter so it took a phone call to clarify....so fly safe and don't always blindly accept a controllers vector if it doesn't add up.

[M016576]

3 hours ago, thinwing said:

Thanks "mO"for all the useful info...re adsB traffic...I am referring to adsB "in"..,if the t-38 shows on Oaklands screens than I "see "it also as traffic broadcast to my adsB in.Since as you say they aren't equipped adsB they can't see me.Im pretty sure it was one of the t-38 pilots that made the comment as I heard them working NorCal when they took off from Beale.While I was transiting Beales airspace , I had received several vectors to avoid them which I complied with as required.Of course ,no way to prove one way or the other ,but the voice sure sounded the same.My point is ,it is shared airspace but I've lately noticed a "presumed owner ship " regarding MOA s in general...not only by a few controllers and military pilots but civilian pilots as well.Staying completely out of a MOA is fine if that course works for you and you have fuel sufficient to deviate.Looking at the Sectional you can see when adding up the foot print of the China and wentworth Moas you are talking a huge area.My issue was a vector taking me a little to close to Mt Lassen with a strong westerly subjecting me to downstream turbulence and roter.Of course the controller didn't realize the effect of this unnecessary vector.I once refused a hold centered over a vor with a big red cell parked over it,given by a Canadian controller.We negotiated a present position hold just as the other traffic canceled IFR which canceled the need for the hold.It all worked out ..just communicate your needs..this controller was under the impression he could vector me out and I had no choice in the matter so it took a phone call to clarify....so fly safe and don't always blindly accept a controllers vector if it doesn't add up.

If you’re IFR, you’re subject to control- but of course you can always request something else.  You can transit MOA’s VFR, but you do need to cancel your IFR clearance to do so.  Not a big deal- but that’s the price to transit a “hot” MOA.

I promise you that fighters will not show up on your ADSB in, regardless of what center or approach sees on their radar- I know this for a fact.  T-38’s are not really fighters, they are a different story.  But if you think you’ll see fighters on your ADSB, you’re mistaken.  Also, try to find a fighter call sign in flight aware.  You won’t.  They are all squawking mode C, they will all set off a TCAS, but you won’t find their tracks in the ADSB system or on any publicly sourced routing system.  At least not yet- maybe someday.

 

heres what I do, and recommend... if I have to transit a moa to get where I want to go efficiently (in the mooney), first I call the controlling agency and ask if they expect the moa to be hot during my time of flight.  If it is, and I HAVE to be IFR, I file a plan to fly around it. (We do intercepts through the clouds in those MOAs... so you’re definitely not safe in the clouds).  Typically I’m VMC, but just want to fly IFR, so I do this:  I just cancel IFR, tell the controller I’m going to pick up IFR on the backside of the MOA, and then try to be as predictable as possible as I’m flying through the MOA.  I choose an altitude that’s close to the MOA floor if safety allows, otherwise, I try to pick a route along the edge if I can.  That does help- even if you don’t know it.

It sucks to get jerked around, especially if you’re in the right.  I don’t defend those guys at all and would never condone such behavior- it’s totally unacceptable and unprofessional.  I would find it hard to believe that the pilots would not know that VFR traffic is allowed through a MOA.., but who knows what they are teaching the kids these days.  Like I said before- those guys would find themselves benched if they were in my squadron if I caught wind of something like that.

[bradp]

I’ve found that any single mode of traffic avoidance - eyeball, ATC or in flight traffic displays are by themselves insufficient for monitoring potential traffic conflicts.  If I’m not flying with all three methods I am not using all the tools I have at my disposal.  

Example - 6 minute repositioning flight I called Approach for flight following.  Boy am I glad I did.  Night time - other aircraft was one of those why do they bother turning them on dim who i was very glad to have had ATC point out.  Every bit of information helps.