ATC story today

[Skates97]

9 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

EVER SINCE.... I now keep a log on my knee board of every hand-off;  the controlling agency, the new frequency, the time, and a check mark when the new controller has been contacted AND acknowledged me on the new freq.  If there's been some time since the last frequency change, I call and query if I'm still supposed to still be with that controller.  Also...at the recommendation of peevee , I keep my standby radio on the emergency frequency, as this is the first place they will query for you if lost in the system.

Tom

I use DroidEFB on my tablet and there is a flight pad section with a spot for in flight frequency changes, heading assignments, altitude changes, altimeter settings, etc... I have played around with it logging the frequency changes before but never gave much thought to it being a backup for a possible incident. I may start being more diligent with it as it time stamps everything.

[Marauder]

9 hours ago, PaulM said:

When I was flying down to the Summit I was monitoring 121.5 and Potomac approach called me on guard.    Gave me a new frequency for the next sector.  I know that I didn't hear a handoff.   

My only problem with monitoring guard are the idiots that "joke" on the frequency... when it becomes too much I have to turn it off for a hundred miles or so. 

You mean the guys that say Guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd? 

[Marauder]

6 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I used to do that, too. 

Now I just bring up the “recent frequency” menu on the GTN750: 

Pencil & paper: So 20th century. 

But you need your reading glasses to see that list 

[Hank]

29 minutes ago, Marauder said:

But you need your reading glasses to see that list 

Yeah, what's up with those huge buttons and itty bitty numbers inside them????

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yeah, what's up with those huge buttons and itty bitty numbers inside them????

Young man's plane... just happens that old men are flying them.

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

But you need your reading glasses to see that list 

No problem, I got my Garmin glasses:

[thinwing]

My last ATC interaction....was me requesting a land line connection to Oakland Center controller to discuss why he insisted on routing me out of a MOA while Vfr.Out west ,we are covered in MOAs...his vector was ment to send me straight at the highest volcanoe/ mountain in northern calif.I politely called back unable ,I was navigating direct ,only clipping the edge ,and I didn't see the reason for a 45 degree vector into the side of a mountain!Additionally I added ,I had ads b /target trend on the two military t-38s ,26 miles away and heading away from me.I also advised I was exercising extreme diligence to see and avoid.He responded to the two t-38 pilots that I was being "stubborn"A reply came back from someone to "violate him".I than realized this controller was confusing a MOA with a Military Restricted Area.I called them ,and got the supervisor and explained my problem with the controller.He agreed ,and stated Vfr transitioning of A MOA is perfectly legal.It turns out he was confused..IFR traffic is routinely routed arround and out of a MOA when "hot"An email to the base commander of the AFB where the two t-38 departed from expressed my belief that based on the "violate "him comment,his pilots were laboring under the same belief on this supposedly shared airspace.He stated it wasn't his pilots that made the comment as they are uhf only,and again stated the air force had listened to the tape and found I was operating legally.So somebody out there is also under the impression that you never operate Vfr in a moa...

 

 

 

 

 

[jaylw314]

44 minutes ago, thinwing said:

My last ATC interaction....was me requesting a land line connection to Oakland Center controller to discuss why he insisted on routing me out of a MOA while Vfr.Out west ,we are covered in MOAs...his vector was ment to send me straight at the highest volcanoe/ mountain in northern calif.I politely called back unable ,I was navigating direct ,only clipping the edge ,and I didn't see the reason for a 45 degree vector into the side of a mountain!Additionally I added ,I had ads b /target trend on the two military t-38s ,26 miles away and heading away from me.I also advised I was exercising extreme diligence to see and avoid.He responded to the two t-38 pilots that I was being "stubborn"A reply came back from someone to "violate him".I than realized this controller was confusing a MOA with a Military Restricted Area.I called them ,and got the supervisor and explained my problem with the controller.He agreed ,and stated Vfr transitioning of A MOA is perfectly legal.It turns out he was confused..IFR traffic is routinely routed arround and out of a MOA when "hot"An email to the base commander of the AFB where the two t-38 departed from expressed my belief that based on the "violate "him comment,his pilots were laboring under the same belief on this supposedly shared airspace.He stated it wasn't his pilots that made the comment as they are uhf only,and again stated the air force had listened to the tape and found I was operating legally.So somebody out there is also under the impression that you never operate Vfr in a moa...

 

 

 

 

 

Yuck.  I wonder what would have happened if you had said "Cancel radar services, good day".  That might have reminded the controller you are not under his control as VFR traffic, but I wonder if they would have wrongly sent out an intercept or violation based on transitioning an MOA

FWIW, my last flight through your area, the Oakland controller was excessively friendly and helpful.  He kept offering to have me go direct and cut corners off my planned route.

Edited December 22, 2017 by jaylw314

[M016576]

2 hours ago, thinwing said:

My last ATC interaction....was me requesting a land line connection to Oakland Center controller to discuss why he insisted on routing me out of a MOA while Vfr.Out west ,we are covered in MOAs...his vector was ment to send me straight at the highest volcanoe/ mountain in northern calif.I politely called back unable ,I was navigating direct ,only clipping the edge ,and I didn't see the reason for a 45 degree vector into the side of a mountain!Additionally I added ,I had ads b /target trend on the two military t-38s ,26 miles away and heading away from me.I also advised I was exercising extreme diligence to see and avoid.He responded to the two t-38 pilots that I was being "stubborn"A reply came back from someone to "violate him".I than realized this controller was confusing a MOA with a Military Restricted Area.I called them ,and got the supervisor and explained my problem with the controller.He agreed ,and stated Vfr transitioning of A MOA is perfectly legal.It turns out he was confused..IFR traffic is routinely routed arround and out of a MOA when "hot"An email to the base commander of the AFB where the two t-38 departed from expressed my belief that based on the "violate "him comment,his pilots were laboring under the same belief on this supposedly shared airspace.He stated it wasn't his pilots that made the comment as they are uhf only,and again stated the air force had listened to the tape and found I was operating legally.So somebody out there is also under the impression that you never operate Vfr in a moa...

 

 

 

 

 

This post I’m writing is for your information only- as I’ve spent quite a lot of time flying in the MOA’s on the west coast.... as I fly fighters out here- first in the Navy, our of Lemoore, then out of China Lake.. and now out of Klamath Falls in the ANG.

We’re you in 2508, or were you up by Redding?  Mt. Shasta isn’t in a MOA, or really close to any of them.  If you were in 2508, I recommend flying directly up highway 395 when In the mooney.  We (the fighter pilots that operate in 2508) are briefed to be extremely careful around 395, due to the VFR traffic there- personally, I’d stick to the eastern side of the airspace when I was flying F-18’s- far less civilian traffic there.

2508 has tons of fighter jet traffic.  Whitmore is pretty deserted.  

No fighter jet (I don’t consider a t-38 a fighter) in the inventory has ADSB of any flavor- and they won’t show up on your ADSB devices.  So if you only see 2 T-38’s flying by in a hot moa- you might not see the 15 fighters flying a defensive counter air mission directly above you.

Most fighters don’t use VHF, although they do have the capability.  They typically use UHF frequencies.. controllers can hear both simultaneously and simulcast on both frequencies.  You may hear a controller talking to a military fighter jet, but you probably won’t hear their response.  F-16’s used to have a VHF only #2 radio, but those have mainly been replaced with the ARC-210- which is dual UHF/VHF.

if you’re ever intercepted by a fighter, they will try to reach you first on VHF guard (121.5).  If you see a fighter flying nearby, putting out flares, rocking his wings, dial up 121.5 and listen for instructions.  If you see one fighter jet trying to get your attention, there is a second one somewhere behind you.

you can certainly fly VFR through a hot MOA.  When VFR traffic is flying through our MOA’s, we try to set a deconfliction boundary with that traffic.  Typically that is an altitude restriction or a lateral restriction.  Sometimes, the VFR target “sneaks” into the airspace: ie- it flys along the border, then makes a sharp turn into the MOA.  When that happens, it may result in “knocking off” an entire simulated war, to re-establish new “training rules” (ie, set a floor/boundary).  That costs time and tax payer money... for some of our larger fights- 30,000lbs of jet fuel is burned collectively just to set up the fight, so It frustrates us, as fighter pilots to lose that time/gas.  Everyone that I fly with, though, understands that VFR traffic is allowed to fly through moa’s.

It can be dangerous if the fighter pilots don’t see you, or know you’re there.  When we fly BFM, we take precautions to “clear” a 10nm area with our eyes and radars, but if we miss your plane for some reason, our jets are rapidly losing and gaining altitude... and varying our turns and speed very quickly.  We are also visually focused entirely on the other jet- so, big sky theory aside, their is an increased risk of a midair for all parties.

I don’t know if T-38’s use victor radios(VHF), I trained in the T-45.  If it was the two T-38 pilots, then when you talk to the base, use the term “exceptionally unprofessional.”  That will get their attention.  You can bet that those two guys won’t make that mistake again (suggesting to violate a civilian for flying in a MOA).  If they were in my squadron, they would be benched for at least a week for that kind of behavior.  

Safe flying

edit:  Newer T-38’s (T-38C) have both UHF and VHF radios, the older ones (T-38A) are UHF only.

Edited December 22, 2017 by M016576

[Bob - S50]

Agreed. Having used MOA's extensively while in the Air Force, unless I know the MOA is cold, I avoid them even if just by a mile or two or by flying below them.  I also know that while see and avoid applies, most days, unless the lighting is just right, I rarely see GA airplanes more than 2 or 3 miles away.  With a closure rate of as much as 600 knots, that 2 or 3 miles computes to about 12 to 18 seconds until impact which isn't much, especially when they aren't looking for you in the first place.  Even if we see them 5 miles away, at our slow speed our chance of getting our of their way is almost zero.

Fly smart. Live long and prosper.

[yvesg]

Are the military flying in the MOA normally monitor VHF guard?

Yves

[peevee]

15 hours ago, M016576 said:

controllers can hear both simultaneously and simulcast on both frequencies.  You may hear a controller talking to a military fighter jet, but you probably won’t hear their response. 

technically, you're supposed to come off the VHF freq when transmitting to a mil aircraft on UHF, few do. I don't.... Mostly because the second I do I get stepped on VHF and have to play catch up to figure out who it was and what they wanted. The more I control the freq the better off I am.

Also, your UHF radios sound like shit. No one can understand you.

B2's are always on some whack route with 11ty zig zags and always have a request and you can never understand whatever the F it is that they want.

[kortopates]

 

On 12/18/2017 at 9:45 PM, MB65E said:

the slang over the last 17 years of my flying is now being corrected. 7 point 5 for 9 is no longer accepted. 7 thousand 500 climbing 9 thousand!  FL240 descending 110. 

Good for you Matt. I hear that all the time from other long time pilots that are so ingrained with the habits. I've given up trying to correct them, plus when I have tried to its usually only minutes later and we'll hear a professional airline pilot doing it too - perhaps the biggest offenders setting a poor example. Perhaps I am overly anal but the sign of true professionalism on the radio is sticking to proper phraseology.  

Edited December 22, 2017 by kortopates

[carusoam]

Gents,

Thanks for the open sharing from all sides!

MSers come in all types... with all kinds of experience... from private pilots, to military pilots, to air traffic controllers...

Thanks again...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

........9 thousand...........

Good for you Matt. I hear that all the time from other long time pilots that are so ingrained with the habits. I've given up trying to correct them, plus when I have tried to its usually only minutes later and we'll hear a professional airline pilot doing it too - perhaps the biggest offenders setting a poor example. Perhaps I am overly anal but the sign of true professionalism on the radio is sticking to proper phraseology.  

Niner Two Niner Papa Golf (my F model Mooney)

Niner Niner Four Papa Tango (my IVPT)

I struggle with tree ( for 3) and fife ( for 5) but always use Niner for my nines.  Love the way "Niner" rolls off the tongue.   

Tom

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I struggle with tree ( for 3) and fife ( for 5) but always use Niner for my nines.  Love the way "Niner" rolls off the tongue.   

Me, too! Depending on how I feel, or what random thoughts are running theough my head, I'll check in as either "Fouuur . . Fouuuur . . Fouuuur" or "triple four" but I can't make myself say "tree," "fower" or "fife." "Niner" is an aviation natural.

I also use the phonetic alphabet whenever I have to spell things on the phone, give serial numbers, etc. Most people get it, but some people just don't . . . "A as in apple, S as in Sam . . ." drives me nuts! 

[Bartman]

I try to be courteous, respectful, and try my best to sound as professional as the guys and gals high above me. But I have to do what the controller says because I am almost always on an IFR flight plan even in VMC.  

[MB65E]

This reminds me of the Viper on the east coast that punched thru a 152. There is no room for error in MOA's with fast movers. While 100% legal to operate in an MOA, I'll take all the vectors I can to avoid a student  in an F18/t38/f16. As other F16 guys have told me, they can pick up GA targets, but they will then knock off what they are doing. Personally, they are burning a lot more of my money than I'd spend on a 10min vector in a GA airplane. 

[peevee]

52 minutes ago, MB65E said:

This reminds me of the Viper on the east coast that punched thru a 152. There is no room for error in MOA's with fast movers. While 100% legal to operate in an MOA, I'll take all the vectors I can to avoid a student  in an F18/t38/f16. As other F16 guys have told me, they can pick up GA targets, but they will then knock off what they are doing. Personally, they are burning a lot more of my money than I'd spend on a 10min vector in a GA airplane. 

For the system to work everyone gets screwed a little once in awhile. Otherwise everyone gets screwed all the time...

[M016576]

6 hours ago, yvesg said:

Are the military flying in the MOA normally monitor VHF guard?

Yves

I can only speak for the F-18 and F-15- our radios, when set to monitor guard, will only monitor uhf guard.  We have to manually select VHF guard, which is very easy in the F-18 (you just type it in on the UFC (scratchpad)) and somewhat of a pain in the F-15.

only the aux radio in the F-15 is vhf capable, but it can’t display vhf frequencies... so you have to add the vhf freq you want to dial in to the highest uhf frequency capable of being displayed on the radio head and that becomes your vhf freq.  basically you see 3 xx.xx as a victor freq, instead of 1xx.xx, except that the second digit is not the same as the vhf freq’s Second digit.  You also have to have another channel setting selected, then program the frequency... so while not overly difficult, it is time consuming.  

[Browncbr1]

3 hours ago, MB65E said:

This reminds me of the Viper on the east coast that punched thru a 152. There is no room for error in MOA's with fast movers. While 100% legal to operate in an MOA, I'll take all the vectors I can to avoid a student  in an F18/t38/f16. As other F16 guys have told me, they can pick up GA targets, but they will then knock off what they are doing. Personally, they are burning a lot more of my money than I'd spend on a 10min vector in a GA airplane. 

That wasn’t in a MOA.   That was on on a military training route and the fighter pilot failed to comply with vector instructions.    Crossing training routes have me more stressed than MOAs.   They are usually flying along at at low altitude 250kts or more.  My head is on a swivel anywhere near those grey lines!

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

That wasn’t in a MOA.   That was on on a military training route and the fighter pilot failed to comply with vector instructions.    Crossing training routes have me more stressed than MOAs.   They are usually flying along at at low altitude 250kts or more.  My head is on a swivel anywhere near those grey lines!

I learned to fly as a teenager in Germany in the 1970s, when the Luftwaffe still flew their F-104s at low altitude.   You could be practicing turns about a point or something and one would go underneath you.    Plodding along in a C-150 I was startled by one that had come up behind me, and it startled me because it was so close I could hear it.   It scared the crap out of me because there were always two, a lead and a wingman, and I hadn't seen the second one yet.    Thinking back now I suspect they did that stuff on purpose. 

But, yeah, potential collisions are probably the most stressful part of flying for me, and it's a constant issue around here with all the flight schools, plus the MOAs, drones, etc.

[gsxrpilot]

I also try to be super professional on the radio. I believe a good headset and excellent audio panel are key to this as well. That way I get the transmission the first time and clear as a bell. Respond crisply with just enough info and nothing extra.

My wife has even figured out that when trying to get my attention at home... Two Fife Two Alpha Delta always gets my attention.

I still can't believe the number of times I hear "any aircraft in the area, please advise".

[M016576]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

That wasn’t in a MOA.   That was on on a military training route and the fighter pilot failed to comply with vector instructions.    Crossing training routes have me more stressed than MOAs.   They are usually flying along at at low altitude 250kts or more.  My head is on a swivel anywhere near those grey lines!

Actually, the F-16 pilot was on an instrument approach, and his controller gave him a bad vector that turned him into the traffic that she was trying to have him avoid.  If she hadn’t given a vector at all, they wouldn’t have collided.  Regardless, the Cessna wasn’t talking to anyone, and probably wasn’t even dialed up to the center frequency.  See and avoid, even when on an IFR clearance... if you’re in VMC you’ve got to keep scanning for traffic, IFR or VFR... doesn’t matter.  Sad sad sad outcome for all involved.

our minimum tech order speed (for safety) in the low altitude environment in the F-15 is 300 KTS.  Typically we’re at 450+ if we’re low.... on an instrument approach, typically we fly at 300 KTS until it’s time to configure, then slow to 250... gear..,flaps... 180 and transition to onspeed at about 3 miles from touchdown.  In the F-18 we flew at 250 for the whole approach- the jet flew better at that slower speed.

wikipedia isn’t necessarily a valid scholastic source, but this is a good accounting of the incident.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Moncks_Corner_mid-air_collision

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by M016576

[Browncbr1]

13 minutes ago, M016576 said:

Actually, the F-16 pilot was on an instrument approach, and his controller gave him a bad vector that turned him into the traffic that she was trying to have him avoid.  If she hadn’t given a vector at all, they wouldn’t have collided.  Regardless, the Cessna wasn’t talking to anyone, and probably wasn’t even dialed up to the center frequency.  See and avoid, even when on an IFR clearance... if you’re in VMC you’ve got to keep scanning for traffic, IFR or VFR... doesn’t matter.  Sad sad sad outcome for all involved.

our minimum tech order speed (for safety) in the low altitude environment in the F-15 is 300 KTS.  Typically we’re at 450+ if we’re low.... on an instrument approach, typically we fly at 300 KTS until it’s time to configure, then slow to 250... gear..,flaps... 180 and transition to onspeed at about 3 miles from touchdown.  In the F-18 we flew at 250 for the whole approach- the jet flew better at that slower speed.

Thanks for sharing how fast you guys are actually flying.   Controllers usually will advise me ‘fast movers’ or ‘military in excess 250kts’.  I didn’t know it was 300 minimum.  In any case, and semantics aside, the speeds you mentioned don’t allow much time to see and avoid, which is why I am always IFR or Vfr with flight following.  

But, that training route goes nearly right over that airfield in SC.   It would have been easy to have taken off, and right after making a last call on ctaf, look down at the radio to switch over to approach frequency and get knocked out of the sky.  I listened to the tape of the controller tell him to turn several times urgently and he didn’t comply until 30? seconds or so later just before impact.   IMHO, it was the lack of immediate compliance of repeated ATC instructions and lack of see and avoid that the father and son died while poking along at 70kts. 

Anyway, I just meant to say with my previous post that flying anywhere near training routes can be as hazardous as MOAs.