Jump to content

ATC story today


Recommended Posts

Well, it seems it is not a question of if, but a question of when... 

Today I was flying back from KESN to KGAi. I was at 6000 feet and hear that ATC is telling an airplane to descend to 4000 feet. Because its call sign was very similar to mine, I thought they were talking to me. Now, my call sign finishes in 41V the other one in GV. I asked for confirmation and was told that GV should descend, I repeated my call sign and confirmed that I was descending. I went down to 4000. After a while ATC calls me and starts deviating me around... obviously I thought I was too slow, or did not descend fast enough... But, no! He gets back to me telling me about a possible pilot deviation, gives me a phone number...

I landed (not my best landing...), and called, after conferring with AOPA what to do (do you subscribe to their legal service? I did not until today). ATC tells me very politely the supervisor would be listening to the tape and get back to me if there was an action to be taken. After about 20 min (time I used to fill out a NASA form, but is it too late?) I get a phone call from a number I did not know... I was so nervous that I did not answer and it went to voice mail. So I called back right away... I imagined black helicopters, police cruisers coming to the airport to pick me up... I was transferred to the supervisor, a nice lady told me that she did not call me, but the quality assurance team had called me to let me know that they had listened to the tape and that it had not been my mistake, that I had inquired if the instruction had been for me and then I had confirmed that I was descending... and that ATC did not catch it. She apologized for the inconvenience and I started to breath again. 

So not all ATC stories are horror stories, on the contrary. After the fact and listening to my own tape (did you ever listen to your own transmission? I wonder how can they understand me?), I learned that I should be clearer and speak slower. I also thought that it was very nice for them to call back to let me know that everything was OK.

So that is the story. 

  • Like 15
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

 

So not all ATC stories are horror stories, on the contrary. After the fact and listening to my own tape (did you ever listen to your own transmission? I wonder how can they understand me?), I learned that I should be clearer and speak slower. I also thought that it was very nice for them to call back to let me know that everything was OK.

So that is the story. 

I have gone back on liveatc.net and found myself on the tapes to see what I sound like. It is an educational experience that helps me try to improve my end of the communication. I have thought that I was speaking clearly when in fact I needed to enunciate better. Like you I wonder how in the world they have understood me sometimes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oscar Avalle said:

I was at 6000 feet and hear that ATC is telling an airplane to descend to 4000 feet. Because its call sign was very similar to mine, I thought they were talking to me. Now, my call sign finishes in 41V the other one in GV. I asked for confirmation and was told that GV should descend, I repeated my call sign and confirmed that I was descending. I went down to 4000.

Oscar, something doesn't make sense.  You mention the other aircraft was given a descent instruction to 4000, and after you asked for confirmation of that, YOU then descended.  Shouldn't you have remained at 6000, or were you given a descent instruction as well?

Steve

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Oscar, something doesn't make sense.  You mention the other aircraft was given a descent instruction to 4000, and after you asked for confirmation of that, YOU then descended.  Shouldn't you have remained at 6000, or were you given a descent instruction as well?

He was just messing with ATC so he'd have something to write Mooneyspace about.

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Well, it seems it is not a question of if, but a question of when... 

Today I was flying back from KESN to KGAi. I was at 6000 feet and hear that ATC is telling an airplane to descend to 4000 feet. Because its call sign was very similar to mine, I thought they were talking to me. Now, my call sign finishes in 41V the other one in GV. I asked for confirmation and was told that GV should descend, I repeated my call sign and confirmed that I was descending. I went down to 4000. After a while ATC calls me and starts deviating me around... obviously I thought I was too slow, or did not descend fast enough... But, no! He gets back to me telling me about a possible pilot deviation, gives me a phone number...

I landed (not my best landing...), and called, after conferring with AOPA what to do (do you subscribe to their legal service? I did not until today). ATC tells me very politely the supervisor would be listening to the tape and get back to me if there was an action to be taken. After about 20 min (time I used to fill out a NASA form, but is it too late?) I get a phone call from a number I did not know... I was so nervous that I did not answer and it went to voice mail. So I called back right away... I imagined black helicopters, police cruisers coming to the airport to pick me up... I was transferred to the supervisor, a nice lady told me that she did not call me, but the quality assurance team had called me to let me know that they had listened to the tape and that it had not been my mistake, that I had inquired if the instruction had been for me and then I had confirmed that I was descending... and that ATC did not catch it. She apologized for the inconvenience and I started to breath again. 

So not all ATC stories are horror stories, on the contrary. After the fact and listening to my own tape (did you ever listen to your own transmission? I wonder how can they understand me?), I learned that I should be clearer and speak slower. I also thought that it was very nice for them to call back to let me know that everything was OK.

So that is the story. 

Did it take you three drinks to get your blood pressure back to normal :) Glad it turned out well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Oscar, something doesn't make sense.  You mention the other aircraft was given a descent instruction to 4000, and after you asked for confirmation of that, YOU then descended.  Shouldn't you have remained at 6000, or were you given a descent instruction as well?

Steve

I thought he was telling me to descend... Once I asked to confirmation, he thought he was talking to GV...

That was the issue, he did not hear me, or thought I was the other airplane responding to him. So huge confusion...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Oscar Avalle said:

I thought he was telling me to descend... Once I asked to confirmation, he thought he was talking to GV...

That was the issue, he did not hear me, or thought I was the other airplane responding to him. So huge confusion...

So, did you actually descend to 4000, or stay at 6000?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having spent a career in digital wireless communications, I'm a little bothered by how primitive aviation comms are, especially given the propensity for natural errors like what happened here.  An intermediate next step might be that when you key your mic a digital prefix goes out in front of the transmission that identifies the aircraft and also gives gps altitude and location, followed by the voice transmission.   Ultimately eliminating most voice transmissions by just having routine transmissions automated will make the entire system far more efficient.

Until any of that happens, which may not be in my lifetime, we are subject to this kind of problem plus a ton of others related to relying on voice protocols.   I often worry about missing a call, misunderstanding a call, or being misunderstood.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it was mentioned he descended to 4000, but he was also told it was for the G-bird. So Crap shoot if you as me.  I normally now confirm anything and just ask. Glad it was all on tape. I've been flying the a bit as a crew lately in a little jet.  the gentleman I've been flying with has really brought CRM and my transmissions to another level. There is no room for assuming anymore, the slang over the last 17 years of my flying is now being corrected. 7 point 5 for 9 is no longer accepted. 7 thousand 500 climbing 9 thousand!  FL240 descending 110. 

All good stuff!!

-Matt

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, peevee said:

did... Did you read the story?

Yes, I did, and was asking for clarity.  He descended when he shouldn’t have, despite verifying the descent instruction was for the other aircraft.  If this was the case, then he dodged a bullet by not having any action taken.

Not trying to have a go at him, and I agree he did the right thing by verifying who the instruction was for, but the way he wrote it indicates he descended when he should have stayed at his present altitude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

Having spent a career in digital wireless communications, I'm a little bothered by how primitive aviation comms are, especially given the propensity for natural errors like what happened here.  An intermediate next step might be that when you key your mic a digital prefix goes out in front of the transmission that identifies the aircraft and also gives gps altitude and location, followed by the voice transmission.   Ultimately eliminating most voice transmissions by just having routine transmissions automated will make the entire system far more efficient.

Until any of that happens, which may not be in my lifetime, we are subject to this kind of problem plus a ton of others related to relying on voice protocols.   I often worry about missing a call, misunderstanding a call, or being misunderstood.

 

datacom is coming quicker than you think.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Yes, I did, and was asking for clarity.  He descended when he shouldn’t have, despite verifying the descent instruction was for the other aircraft.  If this was the case, then he dodged a bullet by not having any action taken.

Not trying to have a go at him, and I agree he did the right thing by verifying who the instruction was for, but the way he wrote it indicates he descended when he should have stayed at his present altitude.

My point was listen and don't assume until you have confirmation. Additionally, we believe that our communications come through as clear as we hear ATC on our radios, well that is not the case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

......  An intermediate next step might be that when you key your mic a digital prefix goes out in front of the transmission that identifies the aircraft and also gives gps altitude and location, followed by the voice transmission.   Ultimately eliminating most voice transmissions by just having routine transmissions automated will make the entire system far more efficient.....

ADS-B mode S ES and UAT have sufficient data bandwidth to deal with such routine messages. 

I would be happy to participate in a datalink system that popped up ATC communication as text onto my MFD.  Much better than repeatedly asking  “was that for me?” 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

My point was listen and don't assume until you have confirmation. Additionally, we believe that our communications come through as clear as we hear ATC on our radios, well that is not the case. 

I completely agree, and appreciate you sharing the details.  Glad ATC was able to acknowledge it and that you were ok.  We're all one big team up there.  Sometimes I think this topic gets overlooked, so am glad you brought this back to the forefront of our minds.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was headed to Florida last year in the Rocket up at FL230, I was going through Chicago Center airspace over the lower east end of Lake Michigan around 7 on a Saturday morning.  I had been with the same controller for about 25 minutes but could hear him very clearly has he was working a string of airliners into the ORD transition.  He comes on and asks "N1017L, are you still with me?"  I immediately called back that I was and heard him loud and clear.  No response from him.  I'm thinking, OK....this isn't good and call back that I hear him loud and clear.  He replies "stand by, I'm looking to see what frequency I need to send you to."  He gives me my new frequency and I report up to the next controller (I think it was Indy now).  The controller says" yes, we've been waiting to hear from you".  I replied back I was never turned over until just now.

A few minutes later the new controller comes on with the good old "N1017L, I need you to take this number down and call when you land, concerning a possible pilot deviation."  I took it down, didn't say any more....now that god and everyone now thinks this GA Mooney pilot screwed up.  My only statement was for him to advise the supervisor I would be in the air at least another 2 hours before I landed in Tennessee.  Now I had 2 hours of gut boil....did I miss a hand-off?  Man, I know my N number like my name, having this plane for over 17 years.  My wife says "I didn't hear a hand-off and I was listening the whole time too".

When I landed in TN, I called the number even before fueling.  A guy named Tom answers (my name as well, so easy to remember) on the first ring.  I identify myself as the Mooney he was expecting a call from and, with some thought, mention it "appears we had some kind of radio snafu".  He doesn't really say anything, leaving me to feel like I have to explain.  I said I was in radio contact with the controller the whole time, never sensing there was an issue.  He still doesn't say anything.  I further mention I fly a lot of night time medical missions, and didn't find it unusual to be with one controller for a while at that time of the morning as I know they combine sectors when the traffic is lower.  With still no response I finally add, my wife was listening and I've had this plane for 17 years and don't believe I missed a hand-off.  I think you should check the tapes.

He finally comes back with "yes, we checked the tapes and you WERE NOT handed off as you should have been."  He further explains the exact scenario I described, the combined sectors at night, were being re-distributed to more controllers as the traffic was coming up and somehow my plane got missed as they were moving planes out of the one controllers responsibility.  He took my name, address and phone number, but assured me it was for their end, not an issue with me.

EVER SINCE.... I now keep a log on my knee board of every hand-off;  the controlling agency, the new frequency, the time, and a check mark when the new controller has been contacted AND acknowledged me on the new freq.  If there's been some time since the last frequency change, I call and query if I'm still supposed to still be with that controller.  Also...at the recommendation of peevee , I keep my standby radio on the emergency frequency, as this is the first place they will query for you if lost in the system.

Tom

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

When I was headed to Florida last year in the Rocket up at FL230, I was going through Chicago Center airspace over the lower east end of Lake Michigan around 7 on a Saturday morning.  I had been with the same controller for about 25 minutes but could hear him very clearly has he was working a string of airliners into the ORD transition.  He comes on and asks "N1017L, are you still with me?"  I immediately called back that I was and heard him loud and clear.  No response from him.  I'm thinking, OK....this isn't good and call back that I hear him loud and clear.  He replies "stand by, I'm looking to see what frequency I need to send you to."  He gives me my new frequency and I report up to the next controller (I think it was Indy now).  The controller says" yes, we've been waiting to hear from you".  I replied back I was never turned over until just now.

A few minutes later the new controller comes on with the good old "N1017L, I need you to take this number down and call when you land, concerning a possible pilot deviation."  I took it down, didn't say any more....now that god and everyone now thinks this GA Mooney pilot screwed up.  My only statement was for him to advise the supervisor I would be in the air at least another 2 hours before I landed in Tennessee.  Now I had 2 hours of gut boil....did I miss a hand-off?  Man, I know my N number like my name, having this plane for over 17 years.  My wife says "I didn't hear a hand-off and I was listening the whole time too".

When I landed in TN, I called the number even before fueling.  A guy named Tom answers (my name as well, so easy to remember) on the first ring.  I identify myself as the Mooney he was expecting a call from and, with some thought, mention it "appears we had some kind of radio snafu".  He doesn't really say anything, leaving me to feel like I have to explain.  I said I was in radio contact with the controller the whole time, never sensing there was an issue.  He still doesn't say anything.  I further mention I fly a lot of night time medical missions, and didn't find it unusual to be with one controller for a while at that time of the morning as I know they combine sectors when the traffic is lower.  With still no response I finally add, my wife was listening and I've had this plane for 17 years and don't believe I missed a hand-off.  I think you should check the tapes.

He finally comes back with "yes, we checked the tapes and you WERE NOT handed off as you should have been."  He further explains the exact scenario I described, the combined sectors at night, were being re-distributed to more controllers as the traffic was coming up and somehow my plane got missed as they were moving planes out of the one controllers responsibility.  He took my name, address and phone number, but assured me it was for their end, not an issue with me.

EVER SINCE.... I now keep a log on my knee board of every hand-off;  the controlling agency, the new frequency, the time, and a check mark when the new controller has been contacted AND acknowledged me on the new freq.  If there's been some time since the last frequency change, I call and query if I'm still supposed to still be with that controller.  Also...at the recommendation of peevee , I keep my standby radio on the emergency frequency, as this is the first place they will query for you if lost in the system.

Tom

Tom -- thanks for sharing. Losing com in one form or another has always been a concern for me. I lost com on both radios a couple of years ago due to an issue with an open squelch on the GTN and a Narco that went to the Happy Avionics Graveyard. I went on a mission to make sure that my end was not going to be the problem. I replaced the Narco with a 16W Garmin 255B and this past summer replaced all of the RG-58 with all new RG-400. What a difference the cable alone made. When I pulled the RG-58, I found a lot of suspect cabling.

IMG_1378.thumb.JPG.a1b42e63ce50c4199ae5fbddfeca1601.JPG

IMG_1379.thumb.JPG.fe2cfd60733e1c139c48a9e8fd400271.JPG

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When I was flying down to the Summit I was monitoring 121.5 and Potomac approach called me on guard.    Gave me a new frequency for the next sector.  I know that I didn't hear a handoff.   

My only problem with monitoring guard are the idiots that "joke" on the frequency... when it becomes too much I have to turn it off for a hundred miles or so. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is one reason I like to track my location on paper as well as EFB devices.  When I get close to sector boundaries I start to expect  the hand off and I if don't get it when I expect it I will call them.  It is usually easier on flights that one does often you start to know when and where you will be handed off and have the next frequency dialed up though sometimes they will throw you a curve ball with a different frequency or controller.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.