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Trutrack Update


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2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 

Why won’t the GFC500 play with the CNX80? It’s all ARINC429. 

The Garmin web site says this:

"With the optional GAD 29 nav data adapter, GFC 500 will interface with the GTN 650 and GTN 750 and legacy GNS 430 and GNS 530 (WAAS and non-WAAS) series navigators to fly a wide range of precision, nonprecision and GPS-guided approaches as well as holds, procedure turns, missed approaches and more."

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but the absence of any reference to the GNS480 and CNX80 is consistent with Garmin's decision to end support for these navigators.

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23 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Real numbers here how much more is the GFC500 than the trutrak? Laid in of course. 

My shop guesstimated $25k for a GFC500 and two G5s, which would put install at $12k (assuming they guesstimated retail for the toys).  The same shop doesn't do TruTrak, so it's a little hard to compare apples-to-apples, but iirc TruTrak estimates an average install time of around 18 hours.

If I'm playing with round numbers, assuming shop time is $100/hr and the TruTrak is 20 hours, that's $12k vs $2k, or a $10k difference in the installation cost alone.

For the toys, it's $13k vs $6k, so an installed price of $25k vs $8k is believable.

Of course, you don't technically need two G5s for the GFC500, but you do need one, and I suspect that many would opt for the second G5 while the panel is open.

In any event, a $17k delta ain't nothin.

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34 minutes ago, toto said:

My shop guesstimated $25k for a GFC500 and two G5s, which would put install at $12k (assuming they guesstimated retail for the toys).  The same shop doesn't do TruTrak, so it's a little hard to compare apples-to-apples, but iirc TruTrak estimates an average install time of around 18 hours.

If I'm playing with round numbers, assuming shop time is $100/hr and the TruTrak is 20 hours, that's $12k vs $2k, or a $10k difference in the installation cost alone.

For the toys, it's $13k vs $6k, so an installed price of $25k vs $8k is believable.

Of course, you don't technically need two G5s for the GFC500, but you do need one, and I suspect that many would opt for the second G5 while the panel is open.

In any event, a $17k delta ain't nothin.

I suspect this is about what we see real world.  Don't get me wrong 2 G5's & GFC500 is an amazing and capable set up but definitely more than TT.  Real world numbers for the TruTrak are $5000 for the kit, we cap the labor at 25hrs @ $90/hr and if we do it under 25 hours we only charge you real time.  The estimate from TT of 18 hours is a little optimistic and assumes you run into no surprises which is unlikely on a 30+ year old airframe.  Based on the installs we have done on Pipers & Cessnas the first install was 35 hours (billed for 25), the second install was right around 22 hours (billed for 22 hrs) and after a few more my guys have it down to 25 or under which includes finding and fixing  small issues related to the aircraft or wiring.  So when the Mooney kit is approved I can guarantee that at our shop (EGA Aviation / Wolf Aviation @ KVGT) the total installed TruTrak Vision system will not cost more than $7,250 and possibly less. That assumes that TruTrak will keep the price of the Mooney kit the same at $5000.

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1 hour ago, toto said:

My shop guesstimated $25k for a GFC500 and two G5s, which would put install at $12k (assuming they guesstimated retail for the toys).  The same shop doesn't do TruTrak, so it's a little hard to compare apples-to-apples, but iirc TruTrak estimates an average install time of around 18 hours.

If I'm playing with round numbers, assuming shop time is $100/hr and the TruTrak is 20 hours, that's $12k vs $2k, or a $10k difference in the installation cost alone.

For the toys, it's $13k vs $6k, so an installed price of $25k vs $8k is believable.

Of course, you don't technically need two G5s for the GFC500, but you do need one, and I suspect that many would opt for the second G5 while the panel is open.

In any event, a $17k delta ain't nothin.

That shop is a rip-off. Sounds like 15-17k laid in is the going price for a G500 and don’t forget that’s wirh a couple G5’s too. 

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1 hour ago, whiskytango said:

The Garmin web site says this:

"With the optional GAD 29 nav data adapter, GFC 500 will interface with the GTN 650 and GTN 750 and legacy GNS 430 and GNS 530 (WAAS and non-WAAS) series navigators to fly a wide range of precision, nonprecision and GPS-guided approaches as well as holds, procedure turns, missed approaches and more."

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but the absence of any reference to the GNS480 and CNX80 is consistent with Garmin's decision to end support for these navigators.

You are. The GFC500 works with any WAAS navigator with ARINC429 output. They specifically call out the CNX480 as compatible with the GFC600. The 500 has the same interface. 

Page 92. https://www.samionics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/seminar_sweden.pdf

Edited by jetdriven
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22 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

That shop is a rip-off. Sounds like 15-17k laid in is the going price for a G500 and don’t forget that’s wirh a couple G5’s too. 

A recent install in a V tail totaled $30k...probably not going to get the job done for $15k. I’m thinking 18-20 especially if they have to deal with a birds nest behind the panel.  I think 8ish is the norm for dual g5 installs?

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3 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

A recent install in a V tail totaled $30k...probably not going to get the job done for $15k. I’m thinking 18-20 especially if they have to deal with a birds nest behind the panel.  I think 8ish is the norm for dual g5 installs?

Link for that ? 

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You mean this guy?  With autotrim and YD?  And paying to remove the entire vacuum system ? Because I don’t see that option with Trutrak for any price. those are actually optionsnbwith a GFC500 so we’re not comparing apples to oranges or apples to potatoes either. 

 

My V35B is in the shop now getting the GF500 and two G5's. Installing auto trim and yaw damper as well. Getting it back on the 24th. Will give PIREP after. Total cost was about 30K including removing the vacuum system and installing a Turn Coordinator.

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3 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You mean this guy?  With autotrim and YD?  And paying to remove the entire vacuum system ? Because I don’t see that option with Trutrak for any price. those are actually optionsnbwith a GFC500 so we’re not comparing apples to oranges or apples to potatoes either. 

 

My V35B is in the shop now getting the GF500 and two G5's. Installing auto trim and yaw damper as well. Getting it back on the 24th. Will give PIREP after. Total cost was about 30K including removing the vacuum system and installing a Turn Coordinator.

Not to mention a new panel too. I Responded to your earlier post about the delta between the two units which I feel is 5k. However, that does not include dual g5’s with the gad adapter, the auto pitch trim, etc. 

You wanted real world numbers, I was just adding a data point that was double your estimated installed cost. 

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7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That shop is a rip-off. Sounds like 15-17k laid in is the going price for a G500 and don’t forget that’s wirh a couple G5’s too. 

I dunno. That's the only data point I have seen first-hand, so I was just responding to your question about real numbers. 

Since the hardware is $13k, I was really interested to know the all-in cost, and I was kind of shocked at the $25k estimate. But it is what it is. If other shops are installing two G5s and a GFC500 for two grand, then my local shop is definitely high.

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8 hours ago, MIm20c said:

A recent install in a V tail totaled $30k...probably not going to get the job done for $15k. I’m thinking 18-20 especially if they have to deal with a birds nest behind the panel.  I think 8ish is the norm for dual g5 installs?

30k for a GFC500+dual G5?  That is a lot higher than I would guess.  I was guessing 15-18 installed. But what do I know.

Does anyone else have any more informed guesses than me?

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37 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

30k for a GFC500+dual G5?  That is a lot higher than I would guess.  I was guessing 15-18 installed. But what do I know.

Does anyone else have any more informed guesses than me?

All I have is estimated install cost for a 10 inch txi, g5, gad29, 345, and a gfc500 with pitch trim. It’s not inexpensive...

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Assuming you already have the required G5 (or two G5's if you prefer), why should it take a lot more hours to install a GFC500 than a TruTrak or a Trio?  All three involve mounting the control head.  All three require a connection to the navigator if you want GPS navigation.  All three require installing 2 servos.  So if you can do a TT in 25 hours, why should it take much more than that to do the GFC?  If that's the case, the price difference should boil down to the difference in hardware cost which is about $2000.

I don't have bids yet, but I'm guessing a dual G5 install will cost me about $5200 for hardware and $4000 for the install.  Then when I'm ready, the GFC500 will cost about $7000 for the hardware and $3000 for the install?

The TT and Trio do not require a G5 (or any attitude input for that matter) so the total minimum cost should be quite a bit less than the GFC.  However, you have to be happy with the ADI and HSI/CDI that you have.  We are not.  We are ready to get rid of mechanical/vacuum powered instruments.

I want the option of electric trim and eventually I'd like a yaw dampener for those flights in turbulence.  Those options won't be available ever for Trio or TT (or Dynon either).  Auto Trim probably, but you have to bring your own electric trim.  If Trio or TT or Dynon would make electric trim systems available I'd consider them.  I can live with hand flying an approach (I do that anyway).  But to have to maintain our King electric trim system will be too expensive.  When it dies I'll want to replace it with the Garmin trim servo.  When they install the GFC, I can have them pre-wire the plane for the Garmin trim and yaw options.  Then when I'm ready, just mount them and connect them.

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16 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

At that price... I might just fly up to VGT instead of having Rich watch.   @Jeev I currently have an ANCIENT Mooney autopilot.  Basically a first gen Cessna Nav-O-Matic (ARC AF-512B). Single axis.  Does your install price include removing the old unit? 

Come on down to Vegas there is plenty to do while your Mooneys getting upgraded :) .  Yes removal of the autopilot is included in the price, worst case if the wiring is bad it would be 1 hr ($90) more however we have yet to charge anyone for it.  We remove the old head unit, servos and use the same A/P breaker as long as it is 5 amp.  We add the AP DISCO to the yoke, an AP master switch and a 5 amp breaker if there is not one already there for the AP, all included in the $7,250 price.  

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17 minutes ago, Jeev said:

Come on down to Vegas there is plenty to do while your Mooneys getting upgraded :) .  Yes removal of the autopilot is included in the price however worst case if the wiring is bad it would be 1 hr ($90) more however we have yet to charge anyone for it.  We remove the old head unit, servos and use the same A/P breaker as long as it is 5 amp.  We add the AP DISCO to the yoke, an AP master switch and a 5 amp breaker if there is not one already there for the AP, all included in the $7,250 price.  

I hope you install a ton!  Many shops are installing just a 345 for slightly less than that. 

Question, is more wiring required when interfacing with an aspen?

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10 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I hope you install a ton!  Many shops are installing just a 345 for slightly less than that. 

Question, is more wiring required when interfacing with an aspen?

Thank you! I know, I paid an avionics shop $6500 to swap out my 330 to a GTX345.  My whole focus with my new venture is to do good work at fair prices.  Make money from volume and good honest business rather than gouging to make a quick buck.

We have not done an Aspen yet and TT is going to send me the manual.  I can't imagine its more than a few wires and you are already back there in the harness so it shouldn't be a big deal. I will report back when I get the wiring diagram.

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2 hours ago, Jeev said:

Just got a reply from Corey at Trutrak and he did confirm that the Vision will be compatible with the Aspen AND the G5's!  It is still in the works but will be released soon.

Well that would be pretty sweet... already got a G5. About to put another in and if the Trutrak works with that, that will be going in as well.

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33 minutes ago, Frozen Flying said:

Well that would be pretty sweet... already got a G5. About to put another in and if the Trutrak works with that, that will be going in as well.

It should work fine. The TruTrack doesn’t need an external attitude reference. You will probably end up with redundant GPSS if you wire the autopilot output of the G5 to the TruTrack. If the TruTrack will accept an analog error signal.

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7 hours ago, Frozen Flying said:

Well that would be pretty sweet... already got a G5. About to put another in and if the Trutrak works with that, that will be going in as well.

With the extra two grand of hardware cost the GFC500 gives you things like a flight director and flight mode annunciators. Does the trutrak do that? 

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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

With the extra two grand of hardware cost the GFC500 gives you things like a flight director and flight mode annunciators. Does the trutrak do that? 

The GFC500 is nice, but unless I can install it myself, it isn’t a viable option for me.

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