Lost Mooney M20D - Search with Magnetometer?

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

Revelstoke is where I was assuming. Its a beautiful area as is Penticton which I've visited as well on a Mooney trip.
@stacey sorry for your loss. I have a friend that specializes in these kind of searches. She is a fellow colleague at Savvy and she and her company have been involved in many high profile searches. CNN used her many times when they were discussing the lost MH370. I can put you in touch if you PM me.


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Paul, the Mooney Summit can help with this also if we can get contact info for Tammy Neron from @Stacey. Stacey, if you read this, email me mike AT aviating.com

 

[Stephen]

Starting to think @Stacey might not be monitoring the replies due to lack of response..

[Yetti]

13 hours ago, kortopates said:

Since you bring it up, Stacey mentioned they have cell phone ping data. If so and that was after the crash, that should take them directly to the site. We've seen that to be case a numerous times over the last few years. This was also how a local downed Mooney pilot friend was found after I gave his cell phone to the gal I mentioned above involved in the search. The coordinates took the team directly to the site. I assuming in this case they haven't been able to follow up because of assessility issues given its winter.

 

 

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Just guessing, but there are probably only a line of cell phone towers going that way along the highway.  You would need several towers to do triangulation.  Still a tower ping, time and direction would give an area.  Unless he got off course.  There is a 15 mile range to US cell towers while on the ground. Being in the air changes the range. Weather would change the range. One article I read says he was shooting a pass.  It would also be good to know what nav devices were on board.

[Yetti]

When I looked up Rogers pass on google earth and saw the dog leg at the end, that is where I would start looking.  

Then started reading articles

Could not find weather history, but let's assume shooting the pass Following the road.

one article radar data went ( does radar cover the whole pass?) 46 kilometers NE of Revelstoke.  The yellow line is the ruler in Google Earth.

The pass is 3 to 5 miles across.   (my u-turn to land is about a mile across)   at cruise speed I would guess about 2-3 miles to do a u turn. If he saw bad weather ahead and tried to u turn.

I would also check the ridge to the south at the 46 mile mark.

 

 

 

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Just guessing, but there are probably only a line of cell phone towers going that way along the highway.  You would need several towers to do triangulation.  Still a tower ping, time and direction would give an area.  Unless he got off course.  There is a 15 mile range to US cell towers while on the ground. Being in the air changes the range. Weather would change the range. One article I read says he was shooting a pass.  It would also be good to know what nav devices were on board.

Cells use sectorized antennas and also keep track of ranging information for signal synchronization.   A single tower will be able to tell which sector (and therefore which direction to within the sector width, which could be 1/8 or less of a circle), and an approximate range from the tower.   The system tries to keep a handset in communication with only one tower at a time (generally, except near a handoff to another tower), in order to minimize congestion.   So, if there was a ping or other contact with any tower, there will be approximate location information that goes with that contact.

 

[Cyril Gibb]

Is there any way to get the cell phone data, radar info (last radar ping, direction of travel, speed, etc.) and any other assistance to see where the search has been covered?  I would assume (hope) that the rescuers followed whatever information was available, tempered by local aviation expertise of potential routes and the experience level of the pilot.

Perhaps I'm somewhat skeptical because I had a very annoying experience many moons ago spending a few hours searching for a disabled boat on Lake Ontario as a storm was moving in.  After the fact, I found out the Toronto controllers knew the approximate area where the guys in the boat were.  They had a cell phone and apparently gave a pretty good location description.  However, the controllers steered me 10 miles further east because they didn't want search aircraft in the approach path to Toronto Intl.  P*ssed me off no end.  (Fortunately the guys were rescued a few hours later).

[thinwing]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:16 PM, kortopates said:

Since you bring it up, Stacey mentioned they have cell phone ping data. If so and that was after the crash, that should take them directly to the site. We've seen that to be case a numerous times over the last few years. This was also how a local downed Mooney pilot friend was found after I gave his cell phone to the gal I mentioned above involved in the search. The coordinates took the team directly to the site. I assuming in this case they haven't been able to follow up because of assessility issues given its winter.

 

 

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Sorry for your loss...having been recently involved in the search for a missing aircraft in the Sierra Nevada..I can tell you ,winter searchs are very tough.Radar and cell phone pings are very useful but really only narrow it down to a couple miles...our particular search in apr found nothing...than a snow mobile operator discovered a tail sticking out of a snow bank 3/4 months later...right where the pings said it should be.I am assuming ,heavy snow conditions in the Canadian Rockies would also hamper a search.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Still missing. 

Recent update:  Revelstoke Review

 

[tigers2007]

Still missing. 
Recent update:  Revelstoke Review
 

What was the disposition of that drone photo? That sure looked like they had it.


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[frcabot]

On 12/14/2017 at 7:55 AM, Mooneymite said:

Terribly sorry to hear about your loss.  May God bless your search efforts.

Are you asking about the magnetometer for use searching the numerous lakes, or are you still concentrating on a land search?  As you may know, the US Navy used a magnetometer on the tail of the P-3 to search for submarines, but even given the mass of a submarine, the magnetometer had to be pretty close to the target for detection.  I seriously doubt such would be very effective given the metallic mass of a Mooney.

 

This is exactly right. I was in the Navy. The magnetometers are not very effective -- instead, mostly sonar buoys are used (in fact, since I've left the Navy, I don't even know whether the P-8s that are replacing P-3s even have them).

As Mooneymite said, even with the tons of metal used in submarines, the magnetometers aren't very effective. However, submarines also aren't located above ground, and unlike submarines, Mooneys aren't degaussed.

In general, the magnetometer needs to be right over the metallic object to register a change, and so I'd imagine that any search using that technology would be very expensive and not very efficient (if it works at all to detect the slight amount of steel used in a Mooney cage). I'm not an expert on this technology so I won't speculate further.

In any event, my condolences for your loss, and I hope you find them.

Edited March 19, 2018 by frcabot

[Jerry 5TJ]

C-FESN—Still missing. 

[FloridaMan]

On 12/16/2017 at 9:41 PM, Cyril Gibb said:

Is there any way to get the cell phone data, radar info (last radar ping, direction of travel, speed, etc.) and any other assistance to see where the search has been covered?  I would assume (hope) that the rescuers followed whatever information was available, tempered by local aviation expertise of potential routes and the experience level of the pilot.

Perhaps I'm somewhat skeptical because I had a very annoying experience many moons ago spending a few hours searching for a disabled boat on Lake Ontario as a storm was moving in.  After the fact, I found out the Toronto controllers knew the approximate area where the guys in the boat were.  They had a cell phone and apparently gave a pretty good location description.  However, the controllers steered me 10 miles further east because they didn't want search aircraft in the approach path to Toronto Intl.  P*ssed me off no end.  (Fortunately the guys were rescued a few hours later).

"The light's better over here"

[TTaylor]

Bump   

Was thinking of this today.  Any update?

[Badmoonraising]

I remember this well while in the news. Too close to home for me. I fly my Mooney from Kelowna, BC. I hope to fly over those rocks very soon. Even with good weather it is a formidable task.   I know the previous post suggested cell data around the Roger Pass area but I wonder if that could be false info. Not intentional, just a error. I say this because taking the Southern route makes more sense to me. As I said, even in good weather. Especially if you are departing from Penticton. 

Wil be looking...

[ZFD]

Wreckage Found

CBC news reports a BC air ambulance helicopter spotted wreckage on Monday.RCMP confirms it is C-FESN

 

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, ZFD said:

Wreckage Found

CBC news reports a BC air ambulance helicopter spotted wreckage on Monday.RCMP confirms it is C-FESN

 

Did they give a location?

[TonyK]

From CBC site|

RCMP did not reveal the location of the wreckage, identifying the area only as remote.

 

I hope it brings some comfort and closure to the families.

[kortopates]

Here is some more info I found, which is saying they found it in BC's Glacier National Park, which is in the area they were searching. This early report is saying they have identified the aircraft registration from the air, and working on getting personnel to the location.

https://canadanewsmedia.ca/2018/09/11/wreckage-of-plane-matching-missing-aircraft-found-in-bcs-glacier-national-park/ 

The  helicopter flight that was going from Fields to Kamloops that spotted the wreckage with registration # would pretty much be going right over the same route the lost M20D was assumed to be traveling in reverse. It'll be interesting to learn how close to the pass and road it was found and close to the search area they covered since it likely was too buried by snow to spot while searching last winter.

Finally some relief for the family. Sad it took so long. It has a lot of similarities to Steve Fossetts crash which happened in the fall in the Sierra Nevada mountains near the Minarets, just west of Mammoth, but wasn't found till around labor day weekend the following year for the same reasons. Hikers found remains of Steve's persona; effects which led to finding the wreckage. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by kortopates

[carusoam]

In the event the alerts haven’t been sent in all directions...

Possible/likely sighting of lost Canadian Mooney...

@Stacey

@mike_elliott

Hoping for closure.

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/dominic-neron-ashley-bourgeault-update-1.4818700


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[Marauder]

Here is some more info I found, which is saying they found it in BC's Glacier National Park, which is in the area they were searching. This early report is saying they have identified the aircraft registration from the air, and working on getting personnel to the location.

https://canadanewsmedia.ca/2018/09/11/wreckage-of-plane-matching-missing-aircraft-found-in-bcs-glacier-national-park/ 

The  helicopter flight that was going from Fields to Kamloops that spotted the wreckage with registration # would pretty much be going right over the same route the lost M20D was assumed to be traveling in reverse. It'll be interesting to learn how close to the pass and road it was found and close to the search area they covered since it likely was too buried by snow to spot while searching last winter.

Finally some relief for the family. Sad it took so long. It has a lot of similarities to Steve Fossetts crash which happened in the fall in the Sierra Nevada mountains near the Minarets, just west of Mammoth, but wasn't found till around labor day weekend the following year for the same reasons. Hikers found remains of Steve's persona; effects which led to finding the wreckage. 

 

Check the link I just posted. it was real close to the road. Also shows the picture the helicopter crew took.

 

 

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[kortopates]

21 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Check the link I jut posted. it was real close to the road. Also shows the picture the helicopter crew took.


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Very close! I am wondering if the location ends up being right at the pass too and very likely where they were searching.

[Marauder]

Very close! I am wondering if the location ends up being right at the pass too and very likely where they were searching.

Yeah, sad that it wasn’t discovered sooner. I suspect snowfall in that area can cover anything up fairly quickly.


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[Yetti]

matching the newspaper article with Google earth I get the GPS cords in the lower of the picture for a location

51 14 43    117 38 08

The original article had 18 miles  from Revelstoke

If the coords match up from above that would be 5 miles from Rodgers pass and 11 miles from Canyon Hot spring   25 miles from Revelstoke

Hope the family finds peace.

[Marauder]

matching the newspaper article with Google earth I get the GPS cords in the lower of the picture for a location
51 14 43    117 38 08
The original article had 18 miles  from Revelstoke
If the coords match up from above that would be 5 miles from Rodgers pass and 11 miles from Canyon Hot spring   25 miles from Revelstoke
Hope the family finds peace.

Is there a pass further down the road in either direction?



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