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Dynon Certified thread


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13 hours ago, TCC said:

 


I don’t know the answer to your question. I would suggest a call to one of the two authorized installers to get a better idea.

As with anything, you’ll have to figure out for yourself if the value prop is there. For some folks, it will be. For others it won’t.

 

I'm hoping that some of those folks will have some stuff coming out of their planes that I can put into mine...

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What I heard was the part numbers are the same between the certified and the uncertified.   So the main difference is the STC.   I would wonder what would happen if plane showed up at the certified install center with a fair amount of Dynon wiring in place since that is most of the cost.

Might need to get a copy of the STC and take a read.

Need to check on my friend with the twin that was taken to the experimental catagory for a bit.

 

 

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:36 AM, Bob - S50 said:

You don't have to buy the entire package.  We already have GEM we are happy with.  It would cost a bit over $1200 in parts to install the engine monitor system.  Same with the ADS-B.  We already have a GTX 345.  But Dynon is OK with that.  You can buy just the main system, add the ARINC interface to the GTN650, add the AHRS box, add the autopilot panel, add the bug setting panel, add 4 servos to get pitch, roll, autotrim and yaw dampener.  And for $35 I can add WiFi so you can push a flightplan from Foreflight to the HDX.  Then tie the entire system to the GTN for IFR navigation.  According to the manual, if you make changes in the GTN, they will be pushed to the HDX.  However, Garmin no longer allows changes in the HDX to be pushed to the GTN.

With that system I would have an IFR certified GPS, a battery backed up GPS (the HDX), and a battery backed up ADI/AS/Alt/Hdg system.

I plan to talk to Dynon in a couple weeks at the aviation trade show in my home town of Puyallup, WA.  If they show up I also plan to talk to Garmin, TruTrak, Trio, and BK.  I'll report back what I find out.

I talked to Dynon at the trade show in Puyallup.  Nice folks, unfortunately they contradicted something you say above.  I told them I was looking at an M20 install but I couldn't wait until too much longer on ADS-B and asked whether I could install a GTX-345 now, use that, and install the Dynon system later while still retaining the GTX-345 as my ADS-B solution.  They told me they could not promise that, it depended on exactly what allowances they got on the STC, and it was up to the FAA.  They would certainly like to, but they couldn't commit to it.  I hope so, though, partly because I'll probably end up in that position and also because the FAA dragging their feet on certification past 2020 would hurt Dynon's value prop a lot if people had to rip out ADS-B solutions they had just had installed months earlier in order to do a Dynon install, and I want Dynon to sell a LOT of these.

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I actually have some more information I got from them on Facebook:

"Dynon autotrim requires the Autopilot Control Panel, which provides the interface for connecting the airplane’s electric pitch and roll trim. The AP Control panel was not included in the first STC go around. It is planned to be certified by the FAA later. Electric pitch trim is not common in Type Certified aircraft, so not having this functionality immediately doesn’t seem like a big deal."

Of note is that the AP Control Panel is also required for the yaw dampener.  So initially, no autotrim and no yaw dampener.  However, it looks like they plan to get the AP Control Panel approved later and hopefully autotrim and dampening will come along with it.

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19 hours ago, johncuyle said:

I talked to Dynon at the trade show in Puyallup.  Nice folks, unfortunately they contradicted something you say above.  I told them I was looking at an M20 install but I couldn't wait until too much longer on ADS-B and asked whether I could install a GTX-345 now, use that, and install the Dynon system later while still retaining the GTX-345 as my ADS-B solution.  They told me they could not promise that, it depended on exactly what allowances they got on the STC, and it was up to the FAA.  They would certainly like to, but they couldn't commit to it.  I hope so, though, partly because I'll probably end up in that position and also because the FAA dragging their feet on certification past 2020 would hurt Dynon's value prop a lot if people had to rip out ADS-B solutions they had just had installed months earlier in order to do a Dynon install, and I want Dynon to sell a LOT of these.

I just asked them on Facebook if their STC would allow me to keep my GTX345 and JPI730 and not use their transponder or engine monitor system.  Their answer was.

"Yes"

However, when I talked to them in Puyallup, they said traffic and weather from the GTX345 will NOT display on their system.  I can live with "only" having it on my GTN and tablet.  If you want traffic/weather on the HDX display I guess you could buy just the antenna/receiver for $200 - $500.

Last time I priced out parts it was about $11,000 in parts (plus $2000 for the STC?) for a 2 axis system without the transponder or engine monitor.  That included the AP Controller that is not part of the STC.  When available, the servo is another $750 for auto trim and another $750 servo for a yaw dampener.  So all in for a 3 axis auto trim system with STC, no transponder, no engine monitor would be about $14,500 plus install.

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Then again, it made me think.  A the Sarasota Avionics site if I were to choose a C172 three servo setup, the price is $12,600.  For the C182 it is $13,100.  Add another servo for the yaw dampener and you get about $14,300 to $14,800.  About the same price as the Dynon.

So what's the advantage of the Dynon or Garmin?

Dynon: Synthetic vision, moving map, velocity vector, backup (emergency) navigator, winds indicator, TAS.

Garmin: Less panel modification (2 standard displays rather than a rectangle), better servos, auto trim (now, not maybe later).

What did I miss for the biggies?

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Anyone use a yaw Damper on a Mooney?

The Old integrated BK system has a control head to add the functionality to the electric rudder trim.  Often installed in brand B with a V-tail(?)....

The cost is a few more AMU, and a couple of pounds of UL.

Dynamic stability of the M20 is pretty good.  Can an electromechanical system make it appreciably better?

Best regards,

-a-

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On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 9:12 AM, Bob - S50 said:

I just asked them on Facebook if their STC would allow me to keep my GTX345 and JPI730 and not use their transponder or engine monitor system.  Their answer was.

"Yes"

However, when I talked to them in Puyallup, they said traffic and weather from the GTX345 will NOT display on their system.  I can live with "only" having it on my GTN and tablet.  If you want traffic/weather on the HDX display I guess you could buy just the antenna/receiver for $200 - $500.

Last time I priced out parts it was about $11,000 in parts (plus $2000 for the STC?) for a 2 axis system without the transponder or engine monitor.  That included the AP Controller that is not part of the STC.  When available, the servo is another $750 for auto trim and another $750 servo for a yaw dampener.  So all in for a 3 axis auto trim system with STC, no transponder, no engine monitor would be about $14,500 plus install.

Adding the antenna and having in only on the HDX while keeping the GTX345 as the out/in solution for GTN and Foreflight is a totally acceptable solution, especially at only $500 incremental cost.  Hope they get the AP control panel added to the STC by the time they get Mooney approval.  I'm used to AP control of my trim.

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:04 PM, Bob - S50 said:

I actually have some more information I got from them on Facebook:

"Dynon autotrim requires the Autopilot Control Panel, which provides the interface for connecting the airplane’s electric pitch and roll trim. The AP Control panel was not included in the first STC go around. It is planned to be certified by the FAA later. Electric pitch trim is not common in Type Certified aircraft, so not having this functionality immediately doesn’t seem like a big deal."

Of note is that the AP Control Panel is also required for the yaw dampener.  So initially, no autotrim and no yaw dampener.  However, it looks like they plan to get the AP Control Panel approved later and hopefully autotrim and dampening will come along with it.

That's disappointing.  Electric pitch trim seems like a very common option in higher performance aircraft.  It might not be a big deal to not have the electric trim on a 172, but it seems like a mistake not to include it to me.

Dynon is most certainly blazing a new trail using experimental avionics in certified aircraft- but it's taking too long to get it done.  It's a matter of time before Garmin releases a competing product and erases Dynon's advantage of going first.  Yes- I know I'm being overly critical with no knowledge of what it takes to get this done- let's just call it hope/desire to see Dynon succeed and frustration with FAA bureaucracy.

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On 3/18/2018 at 11:09 AM, carusoam said:

Anyone use a yaw Damper on a Mooney?

The Old integrated BK system has a control head to add the functionality to the electric rudder trim.  Often installed in brand B with a V-tail(?)....

The cost is a few more AMU, and a couple of pounds of UL.

Dynamic stability of the M20 is pretty good.  Can an electromechanical system make it appreciably better?

Best regards,

-a-

Most 252's and all Encores had a Yaw Damper. I think it was an add-on Stec yaw damper independent of the King Autopilot.

5aba6b5507715_YawdamperN40FM.thumb.jpg.a7473ce4003fc209f466c171cab1a8f9.jpg

 

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Was the yaw damper on 252s just to let your foot rest during climb and descent?  I find the controls to be well bungieed and harmoniously linked at least on my underpowered mid body.... ie I’m not on the rudder much during turns and we dont get any Dutch roll effect.  

Pitch trim I get.  YD maybe not so much.  

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55 minutes ago, bradp said:

Was the yaw damper on 252s just to let your foot rest during climb and descent?  I find the controls to be well bungieed and harmoniously linked at least on my underpowered mid body.... ie I’m not on the rudder much during turns and we dont get any Dutch roll effect.  

Pitch trim I get.  YD maybe not so much.  

This sounds like rudder trim?  I thought the YD just helped the tail wagging effect?

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YD is for the tail wag.

the hardware for electric trim is mostly the same, just add the controller to the KAP/KFC... like adding the altitude pre select device...

Mooneys have pretty good stability in that axis.  Even with the shortest body.

PP thoughts only...

-a-

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/16/2018 at 8:04 PM, Bob - S50 said:

I actually have some more information I got from them on Facebook:

"Dynon autotrim requires the Autopilot Control Panel, which provides the interface for connecting the airplane’s electric pitch and roll trim. The AP Control panel was not included in the first STC go around. It is planned to be certified by the FAA later. Electric pitch trim is not common in Type Certified aircraft, so not having this functionality immediately doesn’t seem like a big deal."

Thanks for this info.  Trying to clear up my understanding...So, on the previous page of this thread, I see the official HDX C172 STC announcement, and it seems to include the autopilot.  But in @Bob - S50's post here regarding the info found on Facebook, it says the a/p control panel is not included in the STC. 

Is the thinking that the a/p capability is only STC'd for the 172?  Or does this suggest that the a/p does not require the a/p control panel, which seems more than a little counter-intuitive?  Or is this simply a gap between Dynon marketing and the HDX's actual anticipated practical abilities (within the next year or so) for our Mooneys?  Or to put it more simply: Does it sound like a/p capabilities will be part of the initial STC for Mooneys?  Seems like the answer could be 'no'?

Also, based on the pricing speculation so far on this thread and other sources, it's looking like $20k for the full system, $2k for the STC and maybe $8k for the install, for a grand total of ~$30k for the complete system installed.  Does this sound consistent with Mooneyspace's evolving consensus?

-Sia

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Thanks for this info.  Trying to clear up my understanding...So, on the previous page of this thread, I see the official HDX C172 STC announcement, and it seems to include the autopilot.  But in [mention=11388]Bob - S50[/mention]'s post here regarding the info found on Facebook, it says the a/p control panel is not included in the STC. 
Is the thinking that the a/p capability is only STC'd for the 172?  Or does this suggest that the a/p does not require the a/p control panel, which seems more than a little counter-intuitive?  Or is this simply a gap between Dynon marketing and the HDX's actual anticipated practical abilities (within the next year or so) for our Mooneys?  Or to put it more simply: Does it sound like a/p capabilities will be part of the initial STC for Mooneys?  Seems like the answer could be 'no'?
Also, based on the pricing speculation so far on this thread and other sources, it's looking like $20k for the full system, $2k for the STC and maybe $8k for the install, for a grand total of ~$30k for the complete system installed.  Does this sound consistent with Mooneyspace's evolving consensus?
-Sia


Sia,

The AP Control Panel is what's not STC'd yet. It is not required for AP capability- its an optional add on that is only required for electric trim control or yaw dampening. The only thing required to add AP capabilities to the Skyview is the servos themselves.



As far as price, there's no difference in hw cost and you can put together a config on their site to get an idea. Obviously you have to leave out stuff that's not STCed (AP Control, VHF radios, etc). It looks like the most common config with transponder, ap servos, 10" and 7" screens, engine monitor, and all the other stuff (batteries, etc) is like $16-$17k. Add $2k for the STC, and according to what they said to@jmoz at SNF, about $6k to install into a 172.


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Thanks for this info.  Trying to clear up my understanding...So, on the previous page of this thread, I see the official HDX C172 STC announcement, and it seems to include the autopilot.  But in [mention=11388]Bob - S50[/mention]'s post here regarding the info found on Facebook, it says the a/p control panel is not included in the STC. 

Is the thinking that the a/p capability is only STC'd for the 172?  Or does this suggest that the a/p does not require the a/p control panel, which seems more than a little counter-intuitive?  Or is this simply a gap between Dynon marketing and the HDX's actual anticipated practical abilities (within the next year or so) for our Mooneys?  Or to put it more simply: Does it sound like a/p capabilities will be part of the initial STC for Mooneys?  Seems like the answer could be 'no'?

Also, based on the pricing speculation so far on this thread and other sources, it's looking like $20k for the full system, $2k for the STC and maybe $8k for the install, for a grand total of ~$30k for the complete system installed.  Does this sound consistent with Mooneyspace's evolving consensus?

-Sia

I have a lot of experience with SV, so I can actually answer definitely. The AP Control Panel is not at all required for AP on SkyView. It's only role is to make AP easier to operate. (It's not hard from the panel, but dedicated knobs and buttons are obviously handy in IFR.) The AP Control Panel is not required, though, and is NOT currently part of the STC. I asked at SnF, and autopilot is definitely part of the current STC and planned for future models (e.g. Mooney). They hope to add the AP Control Panel, too, but can't promise anything there.

 

As for timeline for Mooney, their rep had 2 comments beyond what @Maurader already said: 1. They recognize that people are more likely to invest in a panel upgrade with a larger hull value, so Mooney and Bonanza could none ahead of, for example, Pipers, and 2. They recognize that if the upgrade isn't possible before 2020, it's appeal and value drops.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, SkyTrekker said:

Thanks for this info.  Trying to clear up my understanding...So, on the previous page of this thread, I see the official HDX C172 STC announcement, and it seems to include the autopilot.  But in @Bob - S50's post here regarding the info found on Facebook, it says the a/p control panel is not included in the STC. 

Is the thinking that the a/p capability is only STC'd for the 172?  Or does this suggest that the a/p does not require the a/p control panel, which seems more than a little counter-intuitive?  Or is this simply a gap between Dynon marketing and the HDX's actual anticipated practical abilities (within the next year or so) for our Mooneys?  Or to put it more simply: Does it sound like a/p capabilities will be part of the initial STC for Mooneys?  Seems like the answer could be 'no'?

Also, based on the pricing speculation so far on this thread and other sources, it's looking like $20k for the full system, $2k for the STC and maybe $8k for the install, for a grand total of ~$30k for the complete system installed.  Does this sound consistent with Mooneyspace's evolving consensus?

-Sia

I'll pretty much echo what others said.  You can control the autopilot from the main screen. It just involves more button pushing.  Push a button, twist the knob to highlight the function (heading, altimeter, course, etc), push the button to select it, twist the knob to set the desired value.  With the AP control panel you have dedicated knobs for baro, altitude bug, and heading bug.

As for price, take a look at their website.  I priced out a system that did NOT include the transponder (we already have a GTX345), did NOT include the engine monitor (we already have a EDM730), but did include some parts that will not initially be available.  Parts for my system were under $11,000 for a 2 axis, no autotrim, no yaw dampener system.

When I hear a manufacturer tell me their autotrim does not require another servo, that tells me they do not provide electric trim.  That has to be in the airplane already.  Since ours is part of our KFC200, we may not be able to keep it so we would lose electric trim and not need autotrim.  We like electric trim so much, I can't imagine us spending a bunch of money to install an autopilot without it.

So for now, it appears the only system that plans on coming with an electric trim/autotrim system is Garmin.

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7 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

When I hear a manufacturer tell me their autotrim does not require another servo, that tells me they do not provide electric trim.  That has to be in the airplane already.  Since ours is part of our KFC200, we may not be able to keep it so we would lose electric trim and not need autotrim.  We like electric trim so much, I can't imagine us spending a bunch of money to install an autopilot without it.

So for now, it appears the only system that plans on coming with an electric trim/autotrim system is Garmin.

Exactly- and everyone should have learned by now that promises about development are worthless.  You buy what's available today- if what is promised in the future is actually delivered then it's fantastic, but I wouldn't buy anything where key requirements of the install aren't met at the time of install.  For a system that is supposed to be a full fledged replacement that busts through the BS of faa certification, available autotrim is on that list.

Dynon has a head start... I hope they can keep it going as competition will drive the cost of upgrades down across the board.  Garmin is not going to leave Dynon unchallenged.

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I got a response from Dynon about trim servos.  I had asked if their auto-trim system could control the trim servo from the KFC200.  Thought I'd pass it along:

"We do not manufacture or offer trim servos.  We only manufacture and sell our own autopilot servos which directly command the aircraft's primary control surfaces.

In the Experimental/Amateur-built market, we support integration with Ray Allen trim servos for command by our auto-trim control module.  I don't have any information on whether the trim servos you list can similarly be integrated with SkyView. 

You would have to wait until we commence prototype work on an AML candidate aircraft with those trim servos before we could offer any informed answer to your question.
"

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