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reasons for having a GTN750 and 650?


Niko182

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Over the past 2 or 3 months, Ive been researching avionics, capabilities, prices, mainly just for fun when I was bored. I've noticed that people seem to install both a GTN 650, and a GTN750 in their aircrafts. As a result, I was a tad bit curious as of why? Aren't the 650 and the 750 exactly the same avionic, with a different screen size. I also noticed Garmin includes pictures of Panels including both the 750 and the 650 too, but I presumed this is only for marketing, which led me to asking.Full-Panel-Aloft1.jpg

Edited by Niko182
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THE screen on the the Aera 660 is much bigger than a 650 and nearly as big usable area as a GTN750. So that and another nav/com will do it. For much cheaper. Plus the Aera has approach plates much cheaper and audio alerts which the GTN does not have. 

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25 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Over the past 2 or 3 months, Ive been researching avionics, capabilities, prices, mainly just for fun when I was bored. I've noticed that people seem to install both a GTN 650, and a GTN750 in their aircrafts. As a result, I was a tad bit curious as of why? Aren't the 650 and the 750 exactly the same avionic, with a different screen size. I also noticed Garmin includes pictures of Panels including both the 750 and the 650 too, but I presumed this is only for marketing, which led me to asking.Full-Panel-Aloft1.jpg

Nice panel! (It is of my former Ovation)

Why 750+650? 

Because two 750s are harder to fit in a Mooney panel.  

Why two panel mounted units?  One plus a portable works about as well, especially when the portable is linked to the panel mounted unit via wireless link a la Flight Stream.  

 

 

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10 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

THE screen on the the Aera 660 is much bigger than a 650 and nearly as big usable area as a GTN750. So that and another nav/com will do it. For much cheaper. Plus the Aera has approach plates much cheaper and audio alerts which the GTN does not have. 

I have a 750 with an older 696 which does much of what the 660 does - charts, moving maps, plus aopa airports, check lists, back up battery, etc. It is hard wire connected to the 750 but does not do the wifi/bluetooth that the FS510 uses to do automatic db updates. If I were buying now I would probably elect for the 660 or the older 796.

VID_20171121_102848412[1].mp4

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39 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

Over the past 2 or 3 months, Ive been researching avionics, capabilities, prices, mainly just for fun when I was bored. I've noticed that people seem to install both a GTN 650, and a GTN750 in their aircrafts. As a result, I was a tad bit curious as of why? Aren't the 650 and the 750 exactly the same avionic, with a different screen size. I also noticed Garmin includes pictures of Panels including both the 750 and the 650 too, but I presumed this is only for marketing, which led me to asking.

Two WAAS GPSs.  Backup navigation.  Display different items on each at the same time; Weather, Traffic, Stormscope information.  What alerts are not provided on these instruments?

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Probably goes along with the 2 is 1, 1 is none philosophy.  The two are normally setup to cross feed so if one goes down the other is setup and legally ready to continue / land. 

The 30k stack can’t really do anything more than my 6k 430w along with my iPhone but IMO it’s not a bad way to spend money on the panel. 

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3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The 30k stack can’t really do anything more than my 6k 430w along with my iPhone but IMO it’s not a bad way to spend money on the panel. 

Only until your 430W fails leaving you only on the iPhone. If VFR no problem, but if IMC without a redundant GNS430W could be quite an emergency depending on what inopportune time it ocurrs.

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Mine is in the shop now getting a 650 and 750 installed along with adsb and some other things not pertinent to this thread.  Originally I was going to do either a 650 or 750. Most of the MS folks love their 750s and highly recommended them due to larger screen size, plates etc. etc. The choice was made and the 750 was going to be the replacement and upgrade from the 430w already in the panel.  We were going to move the 430w down and keep it as the secondary nav comm and sell off the old Original King Nav and Comm radios.  Well, why not sell off the 430w, kY196, and the KN nav, and put in a 650.  This became a "while we are at it," situation or WWAAI. WWAAI is a deep psychological condition(usually temporary depending on cash flow, wealth, 401k value, w-2s, 1099s...etc.)allowing  a "normally," CB pilot to circumvent normal practical reasoning and financially justify spending more AMUs for a particular objective.  Anyway, dang, we are going ahead and putting new antennas along with rewiring everything to the center stack in hopes that we don't have any issues with range, GPS signal loss, connection issues, etc. All kidding aside, having modern avionics for navigation, communication, redundancy, simplifying updates, extra screen, etc., will hopefully be money well spent. 

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4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Nice panel! (It is of my former Ovation)

Why 750+650? 

Because two 750s are harder to fit in a Mooney panel.  

Why two panel mounted units?  One plus a portable works about as well, especially when the portable is linked to the panel mounted unit via wireless link a la Flight Stream.  

 

 

if you don't mind me asking, what does a setup like that add up to around. I personally was looking at 2 Garmin G500 Txi displays, one being the 10.6 in display, and one 7.6 in EIS display, GTN 750, GTN 650, and an L3 Lynx, or GTX 345. I like that, but obviously A plane has to come before I'm able to install a nice Panel. I'm just curious.

-Nik-

Edited by Niko182
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Briefly...

1) In IMC, having two proper panel mounted Nav/coms makes sense. One Backs up the other...

2) The GTN series is one of the few boxes that is an all in one nav/com...

3) Two 750s Just don't fit...

4) fortunately, There is a competitor to Big G.  Competition is good...

Jerry posted that fabulous panel.  Another O ( @StevenL757 with a similar treatment, has photos going through the process modeling and building the panel)

Best regards,

-a-

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Just now, carusoam said:

Briefly...

1) In IMC, having two proper panel mounted Nav/coms makes sense. One Backs up the other...

2) The GTN series is one of the few boxes that is an all in one nav/com...

3) Two 750s Just don't fit...

4) fortunately, There is a competitor to Big G.  Competition is good...

Best regards,

-a-

That competitor would be Avidyne i presume?

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32 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

if you don't mind me asking, what does a setup like that add up to around.....

That panel was about 1/4 million. 

It came attached to a nice M20R. 

If you start with a stock 1990s plane the total panel upgrade would certainly top 100 AMU.   As carusoam quipped, about equal to one nice J model.  

 

 

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5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The 30k stack can’t really do anything more than my 6k 430w along with my iPhone but IMO it’s not a bad way to spend money on the panel. 

Can you place holds at random?  Fly offsets to routes?  Enter victor airways?   Use voice commands to control the Avionics?  Get 3D audio from the remote panel?   Nah. 

Not that all those features are essential, mind you.  

Besides that, the panel was way more than $30K.  And if you leave the money to your kids they’ll just waste it on non-Aviation frippery.  

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2 hours ago, INA201 said:

Mine is in the shop now getting a 650 and 750 installed along with adsb and some other things not pertinent to this thread.  Originally I was going to do either a 650 or 750. Most of the MS folks love their 750s and highly recommended them due to larger screen size, plates etc. etc. The choice was made and the 750 was going to be the replacement and upgrade from the 430w already in the panel.  We were going to move the 430w down and keep it as the secondary nav comm and sell off the old Original King Nav and Comm radios.  Well, why not sell off the 430w, kY196, and the KN nav, and put in a 650.  This became a "while we are at it," situation or WWAAI. WWAAI is a deep psychological condition(usually temporary depending on cash flow, wealth, 401k value, w-2s, 1099s...etc.)allowing  a "normally," CB pilot to circumvent normal practical reasoning and financially justify spending more AMUs for a particular objective.  Anyway, dang, we are going ahead and putting new antennas along with rewiring everything to the center stack in hopes that we don't have any issues with range, GPS signal loss, connection issues, etc. All kidding aside, having modern avionics for navigation, communication, redundancy, simplifying updates, extra screen, etc., will hopefully be money well spent. 

So true! "While we're at" it is how I ended up with the GTN750 & 650 as well when I was installing the G500. My wiring for dual GNS430 had been spliced into so many times from prior staged upgrades that the wiring really needed to be redone and looking at the cost to do so didn't make any sense without upgrading them, so while I was at it I ...

But even with the 750 alone, "while you're at it" you really need to consider the FS510 and integrated GMA340 audio, the 3D audio and Intelllivoice features are awesome and all controlled from the 750. 

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2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Only until your 430W fails leaving you only on the iPhone. If VFR no problem, but if IMC without a redundant GNS430W could be quite an emergency depending on what inopportune time it ocurrs.

Note my paragraph above the one you quoted.  I also think dual batteries, alternators, etc can really save the day depending on when items fail.  Mooney has been providing dual gps/nav/com units since the late 90’s for a reason but it doesn’t change the way people fly. The real question is would it be a good idea to trade out two 430w units for a single 750?

34 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Can you place holds at random?  Fly offsets to routes?  Enter victor airways?   Use voice commands to control the Avionics?  Get 3D audio from the remote panel?   Nah. 

Not that all those features are essential, mind you.  

Besides that, the panel was way more than $30K.  And if you leave the money to your kids they’ll just waste it on non-Aviation frippery.  

The 30k remark was for 750/650, obviously not for the whole panel. If you take off the value of items removed (10-12k) the upgrade is very reasonable. 

I agree that the upgrades are not essential but nice to have. 

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3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Only until your 430W fails leaving you only on the iPhone. If VFR no problem, but if IMC without a redundant GNS430W could be quite an emergency depending on what inopportune time it ocurrs.

You really need a second nav/com with indicator. I know people think the iPad is great but if the big GPS box packs it in, you have to navigate to get out of those clouds. 

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3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Only until your 430W fails leaving you only on the iPhone. If VFR no problem, but if IMC without a redundant GNS430W could be quite an emergency depending on what inopportune time it ocurrs.

I completely understand this rationale, and like Jerry said above, if you leave the money to your kids they'll waste it on something non-Aviation related.

But seriously, 

1.) how many times has this actually happened to you in the modern era, and

2.) how much redundancy is enough?  We still only have one engine on our Mooneys, but nobody seems to make a big deal about that.

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24 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

You really need a second nav/com with indicator. I know people think the iPad is great but if the big GPS box packs it in, you have to navigate to get out of those clouds. 

I think the OP was implying dual nav/coms but asking why dual gps/nav/com units.  My point was an iPad or phone could keep the pilot oriented while he switched from gps navigation to VOR/ILS. Not as nice as continuing on without deviation but still a viable option. 

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4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I completely understand this rationale, and like Jerry said above, if you leave the money to your kids they'll waste it on something non-Aviation related.

But seriously, 

1.) how many times has this actually happened to you in the modern era, and

2.) how much redundancy is enough?  We still only have one engine on our Mooneys, but nobody seems to make a big deal about that.

Everyon seems to want an iPad with two AHRS, two sources of traffic and ADSB, and an external antenna plug with a hand held COM but there’s a new push to eliminate the second NAV. Why bother. I got an ASPEN and two iPads.  This is faulty thinking.  You need a second, indepent box that can actually navigate you down an ILS to a runway somewhere if your fancy GPS conks out.   It happens.  

 

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Yeah, well, I had an Appollo I think the model was GX60, it was my Nav 1 and Comm1, and it decided to pack it in one day.  Actually, I smelled a toasty electric smell and then it went black.  It was a VFR day so GPS nav was not a problem.  What was a problem was that I fly out of a Delta airport in Class B airspace, and at the time I had the Comm 2 out of the aircraft having it serviced, so when the Appollo went I had zero comms.  Oh, and I failed to mention it was airshow day at my field (KFCM) so the pattern was full of warbirds, a Liberator giving rides, aerobatics, etc.  Not a day to come in with no comm.  I solved it by landing at a field about 20 miles out, remembering I could get the tower on my cell, they told me to call again when I was ten out so I did.  They got all the other planes out of the sky, so as a newly minted PPL and Mooney owner, I got to land by light gun signals with every taxiway filled with aircraft watching to see if I would screw it up.  

Modern era or no, we already have too many single points of failure in our aircraft, like our engine, and in the 231, the alternator and a few other things.  Can't have enough back ups and I really don't care what the cost is when the real cost is being in some kind of trouble some day that you can't get out of.

Edited by jlunseth
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5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Everyon seems to want an iPad with two AHRS, two sources of traffic and ADSB, and an external antenna plug with a hand held COM but there’s a new push to eliminate the second NAV. Why bother. I got an ASPEN and two iPads.  This is faulty thinking.  You need a second, indepent box that can actually navigate you down an ILS to a runway somewhere if your fancy GPS conks out.   It happens.  

 

This is why I absolutely consider a second com radio as essential to IFR flight. With a second com I am one radio transmission from getting radar vectors to VFR conditions. And I also have a dedicated portable GPS (NOT an iPad) that I practice flying approaches with down to non-precision approach minimums, in case of an emergency.

I will never think that an iPad (or 2) is an acceptable means of navigation, regardless of AHRS or anything else, even in an emergency. 

But it sounds like a lot of people are trying to justify their avionics purchases by implying that everyone else is either reckless or unsafe. 

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6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Everyon seems to want an iPad with two AHRS, two sources of traffic and ADSB, and an external antenna plug with a hand held COM but there’s a new push to eliminate the second NAV. Why bother. I got an ASPEN and two iPads.  This is faulty thinking.  You need a second, indepent box that can actually navigate you down an ILS to a runway somewhere if your fancy GPS conks out.   It happens.  

 

True enough - what did you say you are flying behind?  Did you say just one nav com and an aera 660 as backup?  I am misunderstanding one of the two statements I have read here.  Please correct me.

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Even with a panel using for example, a 650/750 and other goodies, I still plan on carrying a handheld comm(which Ive had to use when alternator failed), battery backed up stratus/iPad combo as peace of mind. I won't have a G5 or other battery backed up item in the panel just yet.  A Seamless transition with a failed item is the ultimate goal. When my alternator failed I somehow missed the annuniator and let the battery run dry. It was relatively easy to grab the handheld, call ATC and let them know the situation. We were halfway to our destination and elected to just turn back and replace the alternator at our home base.  We had a 295 plugged into the cig adapter and it went down with the battery because I failed to keep fresh batteries installed. All in all having the backup comm to me is essential and gives you many options that are unavailable when you are unable to communicate.

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