Raptor05121 Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Hypothetical situation. You're in a spin in your Mooney. Disregarding ability to reach the gear, more pressing issues, altitude, etc etc etc: Would it be aerodynamically advantageous to lower the gear or leave it up? Back story on the Piper Forums, I've never heard of this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 The CG alone would be beneficial gear down. Lower CG and more forward CG. Not sure aerodynamically, I suppose more drag may help in some ways, gear doors also come into play. In general, our gear is up when we are out of the stall/spin range and down when we are susceptible, so I think we are naturally on the conservative side. Piloto (Jose) spun his Mooney more times than anybody else on the forum, I’m sure he could talk to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Just noticed, I think the Piper guys are talking about spiral stability vs spin stability. In that case, drag does help and in a high speed loss of control the drag is beneficial and it is often recommended to put the gear out, in that case you do have time, but it may not come to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Right, I had to ask him to verify. In his previous post, the way I was reading made him describe retractable airplanes being harder to fly and easily getting into an uncontrolled manner vs fixed gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor05121 Posted December 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Trotter Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 An Inadvertent Spin and What I Learned About Flying a Mooney I originally posted this to the Mooney Mail List back in December, 1996. -- Don Kaye With all the reading I'd been doing about stall/spin accidents, I decided about 6 months ago that it would be a good idea to have students do a couple during recurrency training (one of my better ideas--sure---). Naturally, they should be practiced to the left to make it more difficult (you know, torque, p-factor, slipstream effect). What I'm about to describe involved M20K's, but is applicable to other models, too. OK, so we climbed up to 6,000 feet. I had the student configure for the landing configuration, full flaps and gear down. I demo'd it and then let the students do a couple. Gradually increase a skid with increasing left rudder and simultaneously feed in more and more right aileron and back elevator until the stall. With the first 4 students nobody particularly enjoyed them, but they worked out ok. Everyone was so nervous that the instant the airplane started to stall, the yoke was released and power was simultaneously added, coordinated rudder and aileron and recovery was complete. (Your basic Power, Pitch, Bank recovery for nose up stall). However----student number 5 decided that he wanted to really see the "break". He held back pressure, I kid you not, just 1 second too long. My new experience now tells me that Mooneys don't snap like the Cessnas in a cross controlled stall--the wing just casually rolls vertical along with the nose going vertical and you quickly "accelerate" into, you guessed it, a spin. Not only did the spin rate rapidly increase, but the aircraft began to porpoise in the spin. I said, "I've the airplane" and the student quickly lifted his hands off the yoke and said "Be my guest." Since getting my ATP, I've always stressed "smoothness" in flying an airplane. I "smoothly" pushed the nose down, pulled the power, and applied full right rudder. The rotation continued--and continued--and continued. Just as my heart rate was really starting to increase and the sweat was beginning to break out on the "right" side of my face (of course you know that flight instructors never sweat on their left side) and plan B needed to be thought up, the rotation started to slow and stop and I gradually pulled up. The altitude was 5,000 so we were test pilots for only one turn (like we did a 2 turn spin). There were a couple of seconds there when---. Back on the phone to Mooney, I talked to Joel, one of their test pilots about the slow rate of recovery from the spin, and he gave me an earful! It seems he's had plenty spin recovery practice during certification. Here's some of the "other" things he said to me which I really took note of: 1. Forget smoothness when it comes to spin recovery! Abrupt full elevator forward right now! 2. Flaps up to prevent stress on the flaps and more importantly to get the air flowing over the rudder more effectively. 3. If recovery isn't affected using the above technique, then use full rudder into the spin followed by full rudder opposite the spin. 4. If that doesn't work, then increase then decrease power a couple of times. 5. If that doesn't work--well, he's never had it go that far. He said Mooneys are slow to come out of spins, so as the POH's say, "don't get into them." I've decided not to give cross controlled stall practice routinely anymore. If you're not really current, I recommend not practicing these by yourself, and even if you are don't do them without first taking a good Mooney specific flight instructor along with you for some additional "comfort". MOST IMPORTANTLY! Watch out for the situations where this vicious type of stall can occur. -- Don Kaye I found this some where....... LT 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted December 9, 2017 Report Share Posted December 9, 2017 I've read / heard that lowering the gear is a generally acknowledged step when you have lost control. Nothing will help a spin in the pattern, there's not enough altitude . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 What about speed brakes, they deploy faster? I would think the gear would force the nose downward from extra drag, speed brakes seem neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 4 hours ago, L. Trotter said: An Inadvertent Spin and What I Learned About Flying a Mooney I originally posted this to the Mooney Mail List back in December, 1996. -- Don Kaye With all the reading I'd been doing about stall/spin accidents, I decided about 6 months ago that it would be a good idea to have students do a couple during recurrency training (one of my better ideas--sure---). Naturally, they should be practiced to the left to make it more difficult (you know, torque, p-factor, slipstream effect). What I'm about to describe involved M20K's, but is applicable to other models, too. OK, so we climbed up to 6,000 feet. I had the student configure for the landing configuration, full flaps and gear down. I demo'd it and then let the students do a couple. Gradually increase a skid with increasing left rudder and simultaneously feed in more and more right aileron and back elevator until the stall. With the first 4 students nobody particularly enjoyed them, but they worked out ok. Everyone was so nervous that the instant the airplane started to stall, the yoke was released and power was simultaneously added, coordinated rudder and aileron and recovery was complete. (Your basic Power, Pitch, Bank recovery for nose up stall). However----student number 5 decided that he wanted to really see the "break". He held back pressure, I kid you not, just 1 second too long. My new experience now tells me that Mooneys don't snap like the Cessnas in a cross controlled stall--the wing just casually rolls vertical along with the nose going vertical and you quickly "accelerate" into, you guessed it, a spin. Not only did the spin rate rapidly increase, but the aircraft began to porpoise in the spin. I said, "I've the airplane" and the student quickly lifted his hands off the yoke and said "Be my guest." Since getting my ATP, I've always stressed "smoothness" in flying an airplane. I "smoothly" pushed the nose down, pulled the power, and applied full right rudder. The rotation continued--and continued--and continued. Just as my heart rate was really starting to increase and the sweat was beginning to break out on the "right" side of my face (of course you know that flight instructors never sweat on their left side) and plan B needed to be thought up, the rotation started to slow and stop and I gradually pulled up. The altitude was 5,000 so we were test pilots for only one turn (like we did a 2 turn spin). There were a couple of seconds there when---. Back on the phone to Mooney, I talked to Joel, one of their test pilots about the slow rate of recovery from the spin, and he gave me an earful! It seems he's had plenty spin recovery practice during certification. Here's some of the "other" things he said to me which I really took note of: 1. Forget smoothness when it comes to spin recovery! Abrupt full elevator forward right now! 2. Flaps up to prevent stress on the flaps and more importantly to get the air flowing over the rudder more effectively. 3. If recovery isn't affected using the above technique, then use full rudder into the spin followed by full rudder opposite the spin. 4. If that doesn't work, then increase then decrease power a couple of times. 5. If that doesn't work--well, he's never had it go that far. He said Mooneys are slow to come out of spins, so as the POH's say, "don't get into them." I've decided not to give cross controlled stall practice routinely anymore. If you're not really current, I recommend not practicing these by yourself, and even if you are don't do them without first taking a good Mooney specific flight instructor along with you for some additional "comfort". MOST IMPORTANTLY! Watch out for the situations where this vicious type of stall can occur. -- Don Kaye I found this some where....... LT This was from the same Joel Smith that perished with Max Rae in a J. See recent thread about slipping your Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 47 minutes ago, teejayevans said: What about speed brakes, they deploy faster? I would think the gear would force the nose downward from extra drag, speed brakes seem neutral. Speed brake drag is nothing compared to gear drag. Years ago Beechcraft had a note in the POH to put the gear down if you were not rated and inadvertently found yourself in the soup. A little more stable due to the keel effect and of it gets away from you then you can still recover it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 I assume this is totally academic. I’ve spun a lot of planes (did all my faa required spins inverted ) but never a Mooney of course. I wouldn’t let gear be a distraction and immediately do your PARE. Maybe if you had a sic he could concern himself with gear -Robert 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) So to be academic, I don’t think it would help) you’re spinning because both wings are stalled (one more deeply). Adding drag seems counter to recovery which is about getting air flowing over the wing (breaking the stall). I don’t think gear down would be a benefit to break the stall. CG isn’t really an issue in recovery unless you are out of your CG envelop. So long as CG is properly ahead of center of pressure your CG is already good for recovery. Now if you’re talking about recovering from a spin with a CG rearword out of range it’s a different discussion -Robert (done many spins, inverted, flat, etc at one point in my life). Edited December 10, 2017 by RobertGary1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertGary1 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 40 minutes ago, jetdriven said: Speed brake drag is nothing compared to gear drag. Years ago Beechcraft had a note in the POH to put the gear down if you were not rated and inadvertently found yourself in the soup. A little more stable due to the keel effect and of it gets away from you then you can still recover it. I’ve never noticed a nose down tendency when lowering the gear in various model Mooneys other than a side effect from slowing. -Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 25 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said: I’ve never noticed a nose down tendency when lowering the gear in various model Mooneys other than a side effect from slowing. -Robert We may be mixing topics. The gear out discussion ,in my mind ,was for what is popularly known as the graveyard spiral. This is when speed is building like crazy and for whatever reason you can’t get the wings level and the nose up....perhaps due to tumbled instruments. Then again, at that point putting out the gear may not be the first thing you think of. Regarding CG, I was just suggesting that theoretically your CG moves forward, not suggesting that it would be a substantial help in a spin. It would be very subtle, only the weight of the nose gear moves forward. I think the discussion started with “more retractable breaking up after loss of control in IMC”. I think one Would need to investigate other factors. Higher performance planes tend to be used more for serious travel which leads to more serious weather. Retractables pick up Speed faster when departing level flight than fixed gear, giving less time to respond, etc. I also think that they are comparing to Brand B. There have been far more in flight breakups of brand P than Mooney’s. Regarding loss of control, not sure, but I think they should have data before suggesting that retractables have more loss of control than fixed gear, really need to compare IMC hours and that is near impossible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Is it possible... The article is talking about retracts vs. fixed gear planes...? Sort of like saying High performance vs. trainers... Putting the gear out, doesn't turn a Mooney into a trainer... Stalls are about loss of lift... anything that interferes with airflow near the wings is not going to help improve airflow...or recovery... to avoid a stall, It is Best to leave the gear and speed brakes stowed.... Since the inadvertent spin in the traffic pattern is starting with wheels and flaps down, and the brain is busy executing the recovery to get wings leveled... Nothing good is going to come from gear not stowed/ halfway extended... In the event of a really hard landing, having the gear down is often good... Stay on the path... you only have so much time to execute the key parts... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) When a single engine is certified it needs to be recoverable within one turn after anti-spin controls are applied. The spin test is done with full aft cg and full fuel as was the case for the long range tanks STC. The test was done at 10,000ft on 49 possible configurations. Even though the Mooney recovered within a 1,000ft I found this test of little value since most spin accidents occur on approach or departure at low speed and low altitude. José Edited December 10, 2017 by Piloto 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N9201A Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Recently met an experienced aerobatic pilot who related that he’d spun a Mooney years ago “to see what it would do” and had time to ponder the wisdom of that choice while his anti-rotation rudder inputs had no affect. He said he was able to arrest rotation but only after jockeying power and putting gear down. Another log in the quite substantial “don’t spin a Mooney” bonfire...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 8 hours ago, Piloto said: When a single engine is certified it needs to be recoverable within one turn after anti-spin controls are applied. The spin test is done with full aft cg and full fuel as was the case for the long range tanks STC. The test was done at 10,000ft on 49 possible configurations. Even though the Mooney recovered within a 1,000ft I found this test of little value since most spin accidents occur on approach or departure at low speed and low altitude. José Jose I seem to recall that you situated yourself in the back seat for the aft CG test, while the FAA pilot flew and the plan was to move forward if she could not recover. Did you ever test the theory that moving the CG forward, while spinning, would assist in recovery? I still think you may be one of the most spun Mooney people still around to talk about it. As a side note, did you ever test the relief tube while spinning? Seems like that could be a mess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said: Actually, lowering the gear on my J causes a momentary pitch up while the gear is in transit. She will gain 50 feet on you when you lower the gear in level flight if you don’t anticipate it and apply slight forward pressure on the yoke for the couple of seconds it takes for the gear to lock in the down position. I’d put this flight characteristic in the advanced Mooney flying category as it took me several years to recognize and instinctively counter it. Or maybe I am just slower than average on the uptake! Is this unique to my Mooney or have any of you noticed it too? Although this flight characteristic could certainly apply to the discussion, I’m not talking about spin recovery here. Just routine flying. In other words your typical MooneySpace thread derailment. Jim My plane starts coming down almost instantly, i always attributed this to it going after trim speed. That said, you have electric gear and a longer in-transit time. Mechanical gear have very little in transit time. I will try to put the gear out slowly to see what happens....just out of curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 56 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said: Actually, lowering the gear on my J causes a momentary pitch up while the gear is in transit. She will gain 50 feet on you when you lower the gear in level flight if you don’t anticipate it and apply slight forward pressure on the yoke for the couple of seconds it takes for the gear to lock in the down position. I’d put this flight characteristic in the advanced Mooney flying category as it took me several years to recognize and instinctively counter it. Or maybe I am just slower than average on the uptake! Is this unique to my Mooney or have any of you noticed it too? Although this flight characteristic could certainly apply to the discussion, I’m not talking about spin recovery here. Just routine flying. In other words, your typical MooneySpace thread derailment. Jim It not unique, Jim. This happens to them all, short mid and longbodies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMan Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 15 hours ago, teejayevans said: What about speed brakes, they deploy faster? I would think the gear would force the nose downward from extra drag, speed brakes seem neutral. Speed brakes may delay recovery- but honestly they are relatively small for the size of the wing- probably wouldn’t effect your spin recovery- but would delay your return to a net neutral attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 (edited) I’ve spun 3 different airplanes. 2 were high performance jets, the third is a high performance turboprop. In the F-15C Eagle (which is a mechanical flight control system, not digital like most modern fighters), the spin recovery procedure has the primary recovery input as the aileron against the spin, and if that doesn’t work, you lower the gear. The idea with the gear is to break the spin attitude to gain control effectiveness. I don’t see this as being necessary or beneficial in a mooney. the reason for aileron on that jet is that the rudders are washed out by the wing during an (upright) spin- thus not as effective of a control input. All other aircraft I’ve flown use rudder opposite- and none have mentioned lowering the gear. Edited December 10, 2017 by M016576 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 A large difference between my C and O for putting the gear down... yoke in one hand gear handle or switch in the other. Depending on Airspeed... putting the gear down in the C can result in pulling back on the yoke. Very much a pilot weight, core strength, and speed issue. I came off or out of the seat a couple of times moving the gear around... Using the switch is a lot easier to notice what is going on. But at the same time, slowing, descending, flap deployment.... trim, trim, trim, always trimming up until the end... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted December 10, 2017 Report Share Posted December 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Antares said: Antares, I know it wasn't your video, so this isn't directed at you, but why would someone post a video where they are: 1.) breaking an FAR (not wearing an installed shoulder harness during takeoff and landing) 2.) allowing their airplane to get into a spin and 3.) executing an improper spin recovery (didn't retard throttle to idle, especially because his incipient spin was to the left) What a dumbass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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