Cheapest/easiest ADS-B option for old-style steam gage M20R (2000)

[mike_elliott]

18 minutes ago, PTK said:

Mike the Lynx traffic presentation is not dynamic. Look at about 2:18 on this video. This is dynamic. Do you see how this removes any guesswork and how it's a huge step forward in presenting traffic? The Lynx cannot do this. Hopefully they will in the future because it's a giant leap forward in safety.

 

 

 

 

Its nice to have trend vectors, just like the Lynx NGT9000 can display on itself and on FLyQ

http://l-3lynx.com/

https://www.seattleavionics.com/FlyQEFB.aspx

[PTK]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

...All TargetTrend gives you is the relative path and closure rate of a target. In other words, the line coming out of the back of the target indicates you are closing in on a target...

And you say that’s “all” it does?! That’s a huge advantage! It’s unprecedented and a colossal safety tool!

I’m not saying the Lynx is bad, just different and not at that level yet. Maybe they will offer something similar in the future. 

[Marcopolo]

  I still don't get how having to look at something inside the cockpit to keep you from hitting something that's outside the cockpit is safer than the verbal warnings with eyes outside.  I've flown with both the Garmin and the Lynx, give me the verbals from the Lynx any day, if Garmin has the verbals then they were not enabled in either of the two planes I was in.  

 

YMMV!

 

Ron

[StevenL757]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I have flown both with TargetTrend and the L-3 9000+ with ATAS. No research, actual usage. All TargetTrend gives you is the relative path and closure rate of a target. In other words, the line coming out of the back of the target indicates you are closing in on a target.

Here is a TargetTrend display showing up on my iPad. The threat is behind me, 100 feet low and the yellow line shows the relative direction of the plane, in this case away from me.

Comparing the Garmin 345 and Lynx L-3 9000+ is not fair to either product. To make a 345 equivalent to the 9000+ you would need to spend thousands more on the TAS box from Garmin (the 800 series). As well, the 345 has TargetTrend but the equivalent ATAS needs to be added (although it is obtained free numerous ways).

The good news is the L-3 offering is supported on the Garmin certified boxes as shown below. You still get alerts on everything.

And the L-3 stuff shows up Aspen and various apps.

Where the real power of the ATAS is its ability to distinguish between a real threat and numerous targets that on Garmin TargetTrend you need to determine (before it displays a warning) if the threat will happen. The ATAS verbally tells you where to look. You hear, you look for traffic.

Ditto here, and couldn't agree more.

Peter, you may still be misunderstanding what TAS/TCAS and ADS-B offer, and differentiating those capabilities from TargetTrend and what it offers.  TAS/TCAS and ADS-B both have different ways of interrogating targets, and the fact is that TAS/TCAS is the most reliable of the two.  TargetTrend is simply one vendor's enhancement spread on top of those capabilities.  It simply gives alerts in a separate/additional way, but the raw data is still only as reliable as its source(s)...whether that be a TAS/TCAS system or an ADS-B/TIS broadcast.  Making a comment that "the Lynx isn't bad", and that it isn't up to the capabilities or level of TargetTrend is literally comparing apples to oranges...the two technologies are completely different and separate.

I'm not saying TT isn't valuable; just that it needs to be understood for what it is, and not be interpreted and confused with the capabilities of TAS/TCAS or ADS-B/TIS technologies - no matter who the vendor.

Steve

[PTK]

55 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

  I still don't get how having to look at something inside the cockpit to keep you from hitting something that's outside the cockpit is safer than the verbal warnings with eyes outside.  I've flown with both the Garmin and the Lynx, give me the verbals from the Lynx any day, if Garmin has the verbals then they were not enabled in either of the two planes I was in.  

 

YMMV!

 

Ron

No one is advocating not looking outside! But we don’t always have a visual on traffic. It is a great enhancement to have a system that presents to us threat traffic advisories along with proximity traffic advisories. Present and future prediction.

[mike_elliott]

On 1/8/2018 at 1:35 PM, Marauder said:

 

The only way Hank will see this value is if he flies with someone who has it and they get a traffic alert and the panel lights up like Times Square. I’ve always been an eagle eye when it comes to picking up traffic. This technology adds a whole new dimension of awareness that augments what you can see.




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Peter, what is different about target trend than what Chris is showing on his Lynx here? 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Peter, what is different about target trend than what Chris is showing on his Lynx here? 

Mike look at the video I posted.

[Jerry 5TJ]

On the debate of ADS-B traffic coverage down low or in fringe regions, such as in a below ridges in a valley — I offer some anecdotal information:  

My plane has an active interrogator (Skywatch 497 system), dual band ADS-B in (GDL88) and 1090ES ADS-B out.  I have yet to see a target on Skywatch that does not also show up as an ADS-B target from the GDL88.  

 

 

[Marauder]

On the debate of ADS-B traffic coverage down low or in fringe regions, such as in a below ridges in a valley — I offer some anecdotal information:  
My plane has an active interrogator (Skywatch 497 system), dual band ADS-B in (GDL88) and 1090ES ADS-B out.  I have yet to see a target on Skywatch that does not also show up as an ADS-B target from the GDL88.  
 
 

Jerry - you sure that your Skywatch isn’t being ported to the GDL-88 like the TAS 800 system can be? The only way I can tell the difference between TAS and ASD-B is the symbology and that the L-3 will tell me that it is a TAS Target.






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[Jerry 5TJ]

5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Jerry - you sure that your Skywatch isn’t being ported to the GDL-88 like the TAS 800 system can be? The only way I can tell the difference between TAS and ASD-B is .....

 

I still have the antique screen that only shows active replies so I can tell at a glance if it’s a Skywatch target.  

[Marauder]

I still have the antique screen that only shows active replies so I can tell at a glance if it’s a Skywatch target.  

When it is showing the TAS target on the Skywatch, what is showing up on the Garmin box? The L-3 has the ability to send the TAS signal out. The TAS target from my L-3 will show up on the Garmin GTN and the Aspen but with a different symbol. It should prioritize ADS-B as the presented target but if the target is not being presented as ADS-R, TIS-B, etc., the TAS target will show up. Your Skywatch may be providing TAS output and it is getting intermingled with the ADS-B targets.

I think I have a picture around here showing this.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

.... Your Skywatch may be providing TAS output and it is getting intermingled with the ADS-B targets....

 

Dang. You’re right, it could be.  I’ll have to untangle the mental wiring.  

I have four different displays of traffic each configured it’s own way.  I’ll set one GTN750 to show only ADS-B & watch some more.  

[LANCECASPER]

On an Ovation I owned I had Skywatch and ADS-B out, so I got ADS-B in on my Garmin 796. Skywatch showed traffic quite often that never displayed on ADS-B, which makes sense since Skywatch is interrogating transponders everywhere, not just in areas of good ADS-B coverage.

[Marauder]

Dang. You’re right, it could be.  I’ll have to untangle the mental wiring.  
I have four different displays of traffic each configured it’s own way.  I’ll set one GTN750 to show only ADS-B & watch some more.  

This stuff can give you a headache. The operative range of these technologies can be varied both through user settable filters and also through some internal filters that can’t be changed.






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[PTK]

18 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Ditto here, and couldn't agree more.

Peter, you may still be misunderstanding what TAS/TCAS and ADS-B offer, and differentiating those capabilities from TargetTrend and what it offers.  TAS/TCAS and ADS-B both have different ways of interrogating targets, and the fact is that TAS/TCAS is the most reliable of the two.  TargetTrend is simply one vendor's enhancement spread on top of those capabilities.  It simply gives alerts in a separate/additional way, but the raw data is still only as reliable as its source(s)...whether that be a TAS/TCAS system or an ADS-B/TIS broadcast.  Making a comment that "the Lynx isn't bad", and that it isn't up to the capabilities or level of TargetTrend is literally comparing apples to oranges...the two technologies are completely different and separate.

I'm not saying TT isn't valuable; just that it needs to be understood for what it is, and not be interpreted and confused with the capabilities of TAS/TCAS or ADS-B/TIS technologies - no matter who the vendor.

Steve

Steve, my comment was in response to someone who erroneously believes the Lynx traffic presentation is same as targettrend. Clearly misinformed or just an anti G reaction. I think both!

And as far as the Lynx is not up to the level of G targettrend it’s just not. When you compare the way they both present traffic, i.e. an apples to apples comparison, targettrend ismuch superior. It takes it to the next level by giving us a dynamic dimension to traffic. And it categorizes traffic advisories into: actual threats, proximity traffic and other. All dynamically presented.

[Andy95W]

I have Garmin TargetTrend via a portable GDL-39 and Aera 500.  I have found it to be very useful and better than the TCAS systems I use at work.

[Mooneymite]

Conceptually, I like the L-3 box.  However, L-3 pissed me off big time several years ago with an extremely high "flat rate" repair charge on a stormscope for what turned out to be a bad ribbon connector.

L-3 will not be in the running for my ADS-B bucks.

 

[PTK]

13 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Conceptually, I like the L-3 box.  However, L-3 pissed me off big time several years ago with an extremely high "flat rate" repair charge on a stormscope for what turned out to be a bad ribbon connector.

L-3 will not be in the running for my ADS-B bucks.

 

I think lynx can be a good box but I think there are two things L3 needs to do with it: give it a targettrend equivalent capability and lower the price. Otherwise I don’t think it’s competitive. 

To say it another way, asking me to pay twice as much as the top of the line ADS-B transponder, i.e. GTX345, has to be justified. And active traffic is just not enough justification when ADS-B  is here to stay.

[LANCECASPER]

I don't have either transponder - but how is the Lynx twice as much? Even the Non WAAS GTX 345 is $4389.

It seems like the standalone display on the Lynx and the fact that it plays well with other avionics would easily be worth the difference.

 

 

[Marauder]

31 minutes ago, PTK said:

I think lynx can be a good box but I think there are two things L3 needs to do with it: give it a targettrend equivalent capability and lower the price. Otherwise I don’t think it’s competitive. 

To say it another way, asking me to pay twice as much as the top of the line ADS-B transponder, i.e. GTX345, has to be justified. And active traffic is just not enough justification when ADS-B  is here to stay.

You are comparing the 345  unit with the built in GPS to the L-3 9000+ which has  active traffic. Apples & oranges. Please keep in mind that the L-3 also has a built in display to show traffic (TIS-B) and weather (FIS-B). For the 345 to display this information you need an app or a certified box with a display.

[MIm20c]

On 12/28/2017 at 11:25 PM, Andy95W said:

This is not entirely correct.  You will still receive the re-broadcast of their primary transponder from the ground based ADS-B transmitter.  The limitation is that this only happens if their standard transponder transmission is received by an ATC radar facility, and that your airplane is receiving the full ADS-B transmission (which means that you have ADS-B Out yourself.).

I have not found this system to work very well. I have adsb out and a stratus 2.  We have about 15 sr20’s at my home controlled airport with radar. They do not show up as primary or adsb targets even when I have 2-3 towers in range.  They do show up via TIS from my 330es when high enough to get the signal. 

[PTK]

9 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I don't have either transponder - but how is the Lynx twice as much? Even the Non WAAS GTX 345 is $4389.

 

 

 

The 9000+ in this discussion starts at 9000$.

[mike_elliott]

13 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Conceptually, I like the L-3 box.  However, L-3 pissed me off big time several years ago with an extremely high "flat rate" repair charge on a stormscope for what turned out to be a bad ribbon connector.

L-3 will not be in the running for my ADS-B bucks.

 

I sure get that, Gus. It happened to me once with a GNS. It does leave a bad taste when the fix is simple and should be economical. I get that testing and troubleshooting cost money, but not to the tune of the flat rate repair. i hope L3 and Garmin change their repair policies  to a more customer oriented policy, as they both make great gear.

[LANCECASPER]

7 minutes ago, PTK said:

The 9000+ in this discussion starts at 9000$.

No, sorry it doesn't start at $9000 especially for those who already have the NY-164 antenna. Plus these things are regularly discounted quite a bit off of retail. (https://avionicssource.com/avionics/l3-avionics-lynx-ngt-9000d-new)

 

[PTK]

3 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

No, sorry it doesn't start at $9000 especially for those who already have the NY-164 antenna. Plus these things are regularly discounted quite a bit off of retail.

 

I don’t have the antenna. So I’d pay 9k.