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Cheapest/easiest ADS-B option for old-style steam gage M20R (2000)


THill182

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Ps having skywatch integrated with ADSB is a huge improvement. See more traffic, get groundspeed and tail numbers and heading on targets. Believe me traffic that you used to worry about will no longer be a worry as you’ll see the bulk of the targets are headed in a safe direction. The Lynx is a really good way to reuse that skywatch antenna...


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18 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

The 9000+ option seems like about as far from the original title of this thread as you can get. :lol:

True; but I greatly appreciate all responses. I actually searched/googled for two evenings to get the full picture, and between 2-3 year old articles and lots of advertisements there was no clear dedicated discussion to this particular topic I could find. So thanks for all responses which provide the cheap-and-get-it-done option as well as the top-drawer (and not-so-cheap) avionics option. I'll have to think about it a bit.

I am using an Ipad occasionally while flying, mostly while on the ground and figuring out clearances and fixes. While flying, my Garmin 695 portable system does everything I need it to do in the air, and the Skywatch system has been very dependable (I don't recall ever running into traffic that didn't show up on Skywatch, and displayed on the 530).

So if you have XM weather and Skywatch active traffic avoidance, what other specific new information would the not-so-cheap L3 system provide? As I said, I have redundant (2) XM receivers in the plane.

Frankly, I have been thinking about spending some money on upgrading to a more reliable and smaller portable (Iridium) Satellite phone from my very old Globalstar phone, and wire it into the headset more smartly (very useful to have my wife arrange for a hotel and rental car when we need to divert and need to find a place to put down for the night while airborne).

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4 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Ps having skywatch integrated with ADSB is a huge improvement. See more traffic, get groundspeed and tail numbers and heading on targets. Believe me traffic that you used to worry about will no longer be a worry as you’ll see the bulk of the targets are headed in a safe direction. The Lynx is a really good way to reuse that skywatch antenna...


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Our messages overlapped; that makes sense and what I was wondering about. I also suspect that the ADSB traffic is more accurate than the Skywatch system where you cannot be sure at what rate and specific intercept traffic is closing in.

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Adsb traffic is not even close in capability to the skywatch/active units. But with the 345/9000+ it combines to give trend lines etc, best of both. 

1 hour ago, THill182 said:

Our messages overlapped; that makes sense and what I was wondering about. I also suspect that the ADSB traffic is more accurate than the Skywatch system where you cannot be sure at what rate and specific intercept traffic is closing in.

 

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Patience grasshopper, patience.

As we approach the deadline, the less expensive solutions will get approval.

Often, the main expense is installation, not the electronics itself. If your A&P can install it during annual, the cost is minimal.

 

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On 12/6/2017 at 2:33 PM, StevenL757 said:

So, yes, the 9000+ model provides the Active Traffic unlock option.  There is a small (about the size of a pack of chewing gum) module provided with the 9000+.  Mine is placed conveniently behind the panel, and the iPad connects to it via WiFi - similar to a "hotspot".  Mine has worked very well, although some folks have reported glitches in Foreflight, such as your own ship not being visible on the map, but L-3 and Foreflight have since ironed that out.

Reliability?  I did have 2 instances on two consecutive flights just over a year ago where I received a "TAS/TCAS not available" message on my G500 in-flight, but was quickly identified and resolved with a SW fix by L-3.  Since then, everything has been perfect.

As far as installed cost (I didn't have a Skywatch antenna previously), mine came out to between $8.5 and $9k.  Again, this was done in parallel with a complete gut/redo cockpit job, so some time savings was realized.  With your trade-ins, your costs would be a bit lower, and you have to realize I paid higher "New York" prices.  :-)

Steve

IMG_0761.JPG

 Do you have traffic and weather on the GTN 750 because that seems a lot more useful than a small screen to the right side of the radio stack. 

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1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

 Do you have traffic and weather on the GTN 750 because that seems a lot more useful than a small screen to the right side of the radio stack. 

My Lynx 9000+ displays on the Aspen, the 430, the 480, an iPad as well as it’s own display 

 

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 Do you have traffic and weather on the GTN 750 because that seems a lot more useful than a small screen to the right side of the radio stack. 


It will display traffic but not weather on the 750. That may change with future software updates.

As Clarence mentioned, it will display both traffic & weather on the Aspens and through the WiFi modules to a number of iPad apps but not Garmin Pilot.

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Personally, I think the best feature of the 9000 is the ATAS system. When she triggers, it’s a real threat and by providing direction, distance and relative position to my plane, it is helpfully finding either the TIS-B or TAS traffic.


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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

 Do you have traffic and weather on the GTN 750 because that seems a lot more useful than a small screen to the right side of the radio stack. 

I have traffic, and have weather via the GDL69.  Agree having it show on larger real estate is helpful.  Both TCAS and ADSB traffic appear on the G500 MFD and 750, however, both types use standard TCAS symbology.  With this installed combination, the only device in the cockpit that shows the difference between TIS and TCAS traffic is the 9000+ box.

Steve

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I so want to upgrade to active traffic but can’t swallow that $2500 antenna price plus $1000 fee or so for the software unlock plus install. I blew a chance over the summer to get a new-in-box NY264 antenna for $500. Oh well. I’ll troll eBay for an old beat BF Goodrich branded one.


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Just now, tigers2007 said:

I so want to upgrade to active traffic but can’t swallow that $2500 antenna price plus $1000 fee or so for the software unlock plus install. I blew a chance over the summer to get a new-in-box NY264 antenna for $500. Oh well. I’ll troll eBay for an old beat BF Goodrich branded one.

Yeah, that is a tough pill to swallow.  If it helps, the NY164 is at Sarasota Avionics for 1989 at last look...about 510 cheaper than you indicated.

http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ny164

Admittedly, I did the same thing...trolling to find a good one for a bit cheaper.  I got very lucky and a gentleman closing up his shop had a new one in the box, never used, and we were able to make a deal for $1350.  Too good to be true, I thought, but turned out to be exactly as he indicated, so was very grateful for the opportunity.  To this day, I’m still thankful I made the spend.  It really is an amazing unit and the capability is second to none.

Steve

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On 12/6/2017 at 10:58 AM, THill182 said:

I should have said that I have XM weather in my plane (actually twice; one handheld Garmin 695; the other displayed on G5/430; two independent systems just-in-case.).

The Garmin 696 has XM weather capability, the 695 does not. If you have XM on your Garmin Portable it must be a 696.  (Garmin follows the same them: the 496 had XM, the 495 didn't. The 796 has XM, the 795 does not.)

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On 12/6/2017 at 7:42 AM, Mooneymite said:

If they get approval for certified aircraft as planned first quarter 2018, this will be the cheapest since there is virtually no install cost:

https://www.uavionix.com/products/skybeacon/

I can equip my experimental with it now and will probably do my Mooney with it too if it works "as advertised".

These look interesting for those on a budget, but I’m not sure how that blade antenna is going to work with the enclosed nav light/strobe configuration on an Ovation or other models with enclosed wingtips.

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These look interesting for those on a budget, but I’m not sure how that blade antenna is going to work with the enclosed nav light/strobe configuration on an Ovation or other models with enclosed wingtips.

Clearly they are only for un-enclosed light installations. It doesn't look like their imbedded antenna design is at all compatible with enclosed lights but they could be working on something to support them - but this isn't it.
Pretty cool though for a lot of planes.


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36 minutes ago, kortopates said:


Clearly they are only for un-enclosed light installations. It doesn't look like their imbedded antenna design is at all compatible with enclosed lights but they could be working on something to support them - but this isn't it.
Pretty cool though for a lot of planes.


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I was told there is "in development" the same sort of device, but will use the white tail light instead of a wingtip light.  

The same source told me the FAA really likes this concept at this price because it will speed the ADD-B process along.

I didn't think the FAA liked anything. :wacko:

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On 12/6/2017 at 1:03 PM, StevenL757 said:

Additional edits...to your original question.

Yes, you will still have TAS/TCAS traffic displayed on your 530 as you have now..  My point earlier with the 9000+ is that you can keep the Skywatch antenna, sell the Skywatch computer (15+ pounds), sell the KT76A/C, and replace with a box that fits into that -76 rack space.  Selling them both will help offset the NGT-9000+ cost, allow you to keep the Skywatch signals going into the 530, save 15 pounds useful load, and gives you "In" and "Out" capability.  Installation-wise, this is also a smart, panel space-saving decision that was very economical in terms of labor cost for me.  Your Ovation will be similar.

Steve

Steven, please elaborate further of you would. The 9000+ provides TAS/TCAS active traffic? What is involved to do this with the 9000+ if do not presently have active traffic in the airplane? Is of an anyenna pirchase or additional enablement costs? And is active traffic of benefit once we get to the point when most of ga will have ADS-B?

Thanks

edit:

I did some research on this:

The unit is available as a remote mounted (NGT9000R+) and can be controlled and display on the GTN! Cost is around 8500$ plus install. This includes antenna for active traffic TAS/TCAS. This is about 3K$ more than a GTX 345R which is significant. But that buys the active traffic. 2K$ of that is cost of antenna.

The question is how relevant will active traffic be once most airplanes are on ADS-B, and, can an active traffic system be installed for 3K$. The answer to the latter is definitely no. No where near. 

Definitely tempting!

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6 hours ago, PTK said:

Steven, please elaborate further of you would. The 9000+ provides TAS/TCAS active traffic? What is involved to do this with the 9000+ if do not presently have active traffic in the airplane? Is of an anyenna pirchase or additional enablement costs? And is active traffic of benefit once we get to the point when most of ga will have ADS-B?  Thanks

edit:  I did some research on this:

The unit is available as a remote mounted (NGT9000R+) and can be controlled and display on the GTN! Cost is around 8500$ plus install. This includes antenna for active traffic TAS/TCAS. This is about 3K$ more than a GTX 345R which is significant. But that buys the active traffic. 2K$ of that is cost of antenna.

The question is how relevant will active traffic be once most airplanes are on ADS-B, and, can an active traffic system be installed for 3K$. The answer to the latter is definitely no. No where near.  Definitely tempting!

Hi Peter, sure.  Piece by piece...

"The 9000+ provides TAS/TCAS active traffic?"  -  Yes

"What is involved to do this with the 9000+ if do not presently have active traffic in the airplane? Is of an anyenna pirchase or additional enablement costs?"   -  The 9000+ and 9000R+ are the same unit, capability-wise...and priced the same.  Both require the NY164 Skywatch antenna.  If you already have one, you can reuse it and save the additional $2,000.  Additionally, with the 9000+ kit, you'll get a straight or right angle RF transponder antenna, AV-801 GPS/WAAS Antenna, and PIM-9000Wi-Fi Interface Module PIM-9000.  Both "+" and "R+" come with TAS enablement already included, so no additional enablement costs.

"And is active traffic of benefit once we get to the point when most of ga will have ADS-B?"  -  Active traffic is of benefit now, and will continue to be of benefit even if 100% of GA airplanes equip with ADS-B in the future.  Many people still don't understand that ADS-B is a service - and will always be susceptible to drops in coverage...no matter what percentage of the fleet equips.  TAS/TCAS will pick up anything with a Mode-A, C, or S transponder.  It will never be bound by service limitations.

"The unit is available as a remote mounted (NGT9000R+) and can be controlled and display on the GTN!"  -  Correct

"Cost is around 8500$ plus install.  This includes antenna for active traffic TAS/TCAS."  -  Yes.  Planning for $9,000 plus install is reasonable.

"This is about 3K$ more than a GTX 345R which is significant.  But that buys the active traffic.  2K$ of that is cost of antenna."  -  True, and although you can look at it that way, keep in mind that a standalone Skywatch TAS system today runs in the neighborhood of $9,000 - $11,000 plus install, weighs about 20 pounds, and only scans 11nm.  The TAS/TCAS computer in the 9000+ scans up to 35 miles out and tracks more targets simultaneously.  I've spoken with a few engineers at L-3 prior to, and after this box was released, and even they have marvelled as to how they were able to put as much "stuff" in this box that they did, and offer it at the price point they did.

"The question is how relevant will active traffic be once most airplanes are on ADS-B, and, can an active traffic system be installed for 3K$.  The answer to the latter is definitely no.  No where near."  -   Absolutely correct, and having the TAS/TCAS option onboard couldn't be more relevant.  Having both technologies available in one small box will give you - without a doubt - the best and most complete traffic advisory option available to GA.

So - yes, it's more than tempting.  Trust me.

Steve

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6 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Hi Peter, sure.  Piece by piece...

"The 9000+ provides TAS/TCAS active traffic?"  -  Yes

"What is involved to do this with the 9000+ if do not presently have active traffic in the airplane? Is of an anyenna pirchase or additional enablement costs?"   -  The 9000+ and 9000R+ are the same unit, capability-wise...and priced the same.  Both require the NY164 Skywatch antenna.  If you already have one, you can reuse it and save the additional $2,000.  Additionally, with the 9000+ kit, you'll get a straight or right angle RF transponder antenna, AV-801 GPS/WAAS Antenna, and PIM-9000Wi-Fi Interface Module PIM-9000.  Both "+" and "R+" come with TAS enablement already included, so no additional enablement costs.

"And is active traffic of benefit once we get to the point when most of ga will have ADS-B?"  -  Active traffic is of benefit now, and will continue to be of benefit even if 100% of GA airplanes equip with ADS-B in the future.  Many people still don't understand that ADS-B is a service - and will always be susceptible to drops in coverage...no matter what percentage of the fleet equips.  TAS/TCAS will pick up anything with a Mode-A, C, or S transponder.  It will never be bound by service limitations.

"The unit is available as a remote mounted (NGT9000R+) and can be controlled and display on the GTN!"  -  Correct

"Cost is around 8500$ plus install.  This includes antenna for active traffic TAS/TCAS."  -  Yes.  Planning for $9,000 plus install is reasonable.

"This is about 3K$ more than a GTX 345R which is significant.  But that buys the active traffic.  2K$ of that is cost of antenna."  -  True, and although you can look at it that way, keep in mind that a standalone Skywatch TAS system today runs in the neighborhood of $9,000 - $11,000 plus install, weighs about 20 pounds, and only scans 11nm.  The TAS/TCAS computer in the 9000+ scans up to 35 miles out and tracks more targets simultaneously.  I've spoken with a few engineers at L-3 prior to, and after this box was released, and even they have marvelled as to how they were able to put as much "stuff" in this box that they did, and offer it at the price point they did.

"The question is how relevant will active traffic be once most airplanes are on ADS-B, and, can an active traffic system be installed for 3K$.  The answer to the latter is definitely no.  No where near."  -   Absolutely correct, and having the TAS/TCAS option onboard couldn't be more relevant.  Having both technologies available in one small box will give you - without a doubt - the best and most complete traffic advisory option available to GA.

So - yes, it's more than tempting.  Trust me.

Steve

Thank you Steven! 

Now here comes tbe 60K$ questiion: Does L-3 also have in the 9000+ their version of what Garmin calls Target-trend? I didn’t find anything on this.  I hope they do because if I were to choose between G and L-3 based on target trend or active traffic I’d pick target trend.

 

  

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6 hours ago, PTK said:

Thank you Steven! 

Now here comes tbe 60K$ questiion: Does L-3 also have in the 9000+ their version of what Garmin calls Target-trend? I didn’t find anything on this.  I hope they do because if I were to choose between G and L-3 based on target trend or active traffic I’d pick target trend.

 

  

 ATAS annunciation and alerting plus direction representation on all of the displays really make this the best in class at the moment. While Garmin's target trend is nice, It is similar to what is found on FLYQ and a good ADS-B in receiver.

Here is what Chris said a few posts up...

Personally, I think the best feature of the 9000 is the ATAS system. When she triggers, it’s a real threat and by providing direction, distance and relative position to my plane, it is helpfully finding either the TIS-B or TAS traffic. 

IF you get an opportunity, go see one at  SNF or OSH. For now, they appear to be on the top of the hill, but as we know, that changes rapidly in avionics.

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Yep.  Nothing else to add there.  :-)

Pete, I’m in Lumberton frequently with Angel flights, and just for breakfasts at FlyingW, so happy to take you up and demonstrate the thing if you want, if you haven’t already seen one in action.  Lemme’ know if interested.

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2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

 ATAS annunciation and alerting plus direction representation on all of the displays really make this the best in class at the moment. While Garmin's target trend is nice, It is similar to what is found on FLYQ and a good ADS-B in receiver.

Here is what Chris said a few posts up...

Personally, I think the best feature of the 9000 is the ATAS system. When she triggers, it’s a real threat and by providing direction, distance and relative position to my plane, it is helpfully finding either the TIS-B or TAS traffic. 

IF you get an opportunity, go see one at  SNF or OSH. For now, they appear to be on the top of the hill, but as we know, that changes rapidly in avionics.

The info that I have found is that ATAS is a 600$ option (standard on 9000+) that adds audio alerting for ADS-B traffic. It gives  distance, bearing, and relative altitude of threat aircraft. 

Target trend does more than that. It is a dynamic presentation of threat aircraft in relation to each other and own ship. Dynamic in the sense that it shows you live how and where the threat aircraft are moving in relation to own ship. 

Can you confirm Mike that ATAS is similar to this? And what other, as you say, ADS-B in receiver has this? 

Or are these simply two different features?

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