Firm numbers

[Stnelson903]

Hi y’all, I need your help.

I need some firm numbers for a few models.

So I’m looking at the J 201 with turbo, K 231, K 252 and the K rocket.

If you are currently flying one of these I would like the real numbers you are experiencing for:

Climb: IAS , fuel flow, MP & RPM setting

Cruise: 70% power, IAS, mp & rpm, fuel flow. At 11,000’.

Descent: 500fpm, still at cruise settings.

 

I’m trying to do the math to make a good decision on which to buy. If found what all the poh’s say. Real world tends to be something else.

My mission will be 2 people, luggage, skis, time is our factor. Usually leaving at 6pm on a Friday and wanting to get 300 miles quickly. These 4 models are going to fit my budget.

Thanks for your time.

 

 

 

 

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[DonMuncy]

You buy what you like and want. You just use the numbers to justify it.  

[Bartman]

I looked at many of those options over the past month. If leaving at 6pm into a ski location sounds like you may need FIKI or at least an inadvertent TKS equipped aircraft to maintain an acceptable dispatch rate. I am interested in reading the responses to your questions. 

[Mooneymite]

On Mooneyspace, we buy what we like and make up the numbers we want.  

[gsxrpilot]

You already got my numbers over on the MAPA mail list.

[Hank]

I'd guess 2 hours or less from turning the key to shutting down, 300 nm is a hop and a skip for a Mooney. Watch for enroute icing. 

My plane accelerates 30 mph on the ASI in a simple 500 fpm descent. I'd expect a turbo model to do more.

Happy hunting!

[Bryan]

I will get a copy of the power settings card I made up for my 231,K tomorrow.  It has all the different settings I use for different altitudes, fuel flows, MP setting and RPM... translated to real-word TAS.  Mine also has a ski tube installed

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

You already got my numbers over on the MAPA mail list.

Me too, via private mail . . .with no response back 

[carusoam]

How do you feel about the quality and completion of the plane?

A turbo normalized on a J is the least refined... not bad, compared to a J.

A K is a step above that... originally missing some details like after coolers and automated pressure controllers.

A Rocket is refined by an aftermarket engineering company... with a big engine... TSIO520 ?

The 252 is an ultimate version of the K as refined by Mooney...

The 262 is a bit of a copy of the 252 by a shop in Florida...

With all That refinement, check the WnB...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

A Missile and Rocket will have the best useful load and performance for the dollar.

If you pay an extra 50K over the Rocket/Missile- you can get an Ovation.  Ovations are slower and have less useful load (typically), but are newer and are a “long body.”

the 252 and 262 will have the worst useful load.  

If it’s just you and one other, (downhill) skis fit just fine so long as they are 185’s or less.  If they are cross country skis, you’ll want to make the ski tube mod.

as has been discussed above: if you’re planning on flying at night, in the winter, you’ll want TKS- inadvertent or FIKI.  

There are some screaming deals out there on Bravo’s (M20M).  If you fly below 12K, they are not very efficient compared to an ovation or a Missile... but if you’re up in the FL’s- they MOVE! (210+KTAS!)

M20J Missile STC numbers

climb- 110KTAS- 1300FPM at SL, about 1000FPM through 6-7K, 850FPM at 10K.

Cruise- 10K- 175KTAS- 12.5 GPH (LOP)

               12K- 170KTAS- 11.5GPH (LOP)

                8K- 175KTAS- 13.5GPH (LOP)

                6K-  183KTAS-  16.5 GPH (150ROP)

I make the flight from Oregon to Idaho often to go skiing- only had to delay or re-route a few times for weather.  But if you’re going to make a trip like this in a light Ga aircraft- make sure you are totally comfortable cancelling if the weather turns on you... no amount of FIKI or turbo chargers will get you above/out of some of the storms old Mother Nature can throw at us.....               

[201er]

4 hours ago, Stnelson903 said:

 

Hi y’all, I need your help.

I need some firm numbers for a few models.

So I’m looking at the J 201 with turbo, K 231, K 252 and the K rocket.

If you are currently flying one of these I would like the real numbers you are experiencing for:

Climb: IAS , fuel flow, MP & RPM setting

Cruise: 70% power, IAS, mp & rpm, fuel flow. At 11,000’.

Descent: 500fpm, still at cruise settings.

 

I’m trying to do the math to make a good decision on which to buy. If found what all the poh’s say. Real world tends to be something else.

My mission will be 2 people, luggage, skis, time is our factor. Usually leaving at 6pm on a Friday and wanting to get 300 miles quickly. These 4 models are going to fit my budget.

Thanks for your time.

On that short of a distance, it will hardly make a difference. You're looking at 2:10 at the slowest/cheapest and 1:40 at the most expensive. 20 vs 30 gallons. What you really need or be looking at is a TBM or a Cirrus Jet if you want to see a big difference in speed.

[Niko182]

3 hours ago, M016576 said:

A Missile and Rocket will have the best useful load and performance for the dollar.

If you pay an extra 50K over the Rocket/Missile- you can get an Ovation.  Ovations are slower and have less useful load (typically), but are newer and are a “long body.”

the 252 and 262 will have the worst useful load.  

If it’s just you and one other, (downhill) skis fit just fine so long as they are 185’s or less.  If they are cross country skis, you’ll want to make the ski tube mod.

as has been discussed above: if you’re planning on flying at night, in the winter, you’ll want TKS- inadvertent or FIKI.  

There are some screaming deals out there on Bravo’s (M20M).  If you fly below 12K, they are not very efficient compared to an ovation or a Missile... but if you’re up in the FL’s- they MOVE! (210+KTAS!)

M20J Missile STC numbers

climb- 110KTAS- 1300FPM at SL, about 1000FPM through 6-7K, 850FPM at 10K.

Cruise- 10K- 175KTAS- 12.5 GPH (LOP)

               12K- 170KTAS- 11.5GPH (LOP)

                8K- 175KTAS- 13.5GPH (LOP)

                6K-  183KTAS-  16.5 GPH (150ROP)

I make the flight from Oregon to Idaho often to go skiing- only had to delay or re-route a few times for weather.  But if you’re going to make a trip like this in a light Ga aircraft- make sure you are totally comfortable cancelling if the weather turns on you... no amount of FIKI or turbo chargers will get you above/out of some of the storms old Mother Nature can throw at us.....               

I wouldn't say ovations are slower. From what ive seen around here, ovations tend to have about a 180 to 185 TAS. the 231 my parents flew for 8 years would do 180 knots at 12,000ft, which is about the same. and useful loads can be found easily over a thousand pounds on some of the older ovations.

[M016576]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

I wouldn't say ovations are slower. From what ive seen around here, ovations tend to have about a 180 to 185 TAS. the 231 my parents flew for 8 years would do 180 knots at 12,000ft, which is about the same. and useful loads can be found easily over a thousand pounds on some of the older ovations.

 

I should have specified- 280 vs 310HP ovations.

The 280 hp ovations won’t do what a Missile or Rocket will do.  The 310 hp ovations will- and then some (they are the fastest O’s). No replacement for displacement.

a 280hp ovation flown 20 LOP over 10K wont do greater than 180 KTAS.  Both a Missile and a 280 Ovation can fly greater than 180KTAS at lower altitudes, and rich of peak.

310 Ovations are faster by about 5-8 knots.  Fuel flows are a little higher.. 

older ovations without TKS, AC, etc may have useful loads over 1000.  Newer ones typically are in the 900’s.  Missiles are about 1125- I think rockets are about 1100 as well, but I don’t know that for sure.

Edited December 5, 2017 by M016576

[Stnelson903]

Thanks so far guys


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[jlunseth]

I have a 231 with a Turboplus intercooler and Merlyn.  IAS for climb is not very useful because it changes too much as you go high.  I climb at a TAS of about 120 kts., full power, full rich, 500 fpm.  Full power is 36", 2700. At 11k it will cruise around 157-160, LOP 11-11.1 GPH, 2450 RPMs, 34" MP.  That is a LOP MP setting, I would not recommend it for ROP cruise.  Descent I would just leave it at the LOP setting, pull off and inch or two or MP and tip the nose over to descend at 500 fpm.  I couldn't tell you what the TAS is, I am usually watching the descent rate.  I use the 430 to set up a "Required Descent Rate," it displays a required VSI.  When that hits 450 fpm I start down, and using my method I will immediately be at or over 500 fpm because of the increased speed to the desired endpoint for the descent.  I adjust trim up or down as necessary to keep the descent rate around the 500 fpm mark.  

In the lower altitudes the IAS at cruise is about 137 kts.

I saw a 180 kts at 11k.  That would be a record breaking 231, they are good for around 170-75 in the low 20's.

Lots of people fly at 12.5 gph at cruise.  That is certainly "Best Power.". It is also dead in the red box.  Good speed but there is a reason why most need a top at around 1200.  I either run at 11 GPH LOP or 13.3 ROP.  

If you are going into skiing country during skiing weather, I agree with the earlier post that FIKI TKS is your most important consideration.  Regrettably, about 5 years ago a father and three sons from Minneapolis, where I live, were lost trying to get out of one of those locations and back home.  They departed Jackson Hole.

Edited December 9, 2017 by jlunseth

[mooneyflyfast]

Flying in the mountains at night in the wintertime I think there are more important considerations than speed and fuel flow.. Like whether you should be doing it at all.

[Stnelson903]

Flying in the mountains at night in the wintertime I think there are more important considerations than speed and fuel flow.. Like whether you should be doing it at all.

It all depends on equipment, pilot ability and conditions. Know your limits. Your limits may not be the same as the next guy.


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[gsxrpilot]

Smooth, cold air? What's not to like? With a capable plane, flying up in the flight levels, a current and competent pilot at the controls, sounds fine to me.

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/4/2017 at 6:37 PM, Stnelson903 said:

My mission will be 2 people, luggage, skis, time is our factor. Usually leaving at 6pm on a Friday and wanting to get 300 miles quickly.

Single engine, single pilot, IFR, mountain flying at night after a long week at work with gotta-get-there-quicky-itis is not a good combination. It may work most of the time, but every one of those factors carries a risk. Combine all of them and the statistics aren't good. My vote is leave Saturday at daybreak after a good night's rest. You'll cover the 300 nm and be there by 9-10 a.m.

[MIm20c]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Smooth, cold air? What's not to like? With a capable plane, flying up in the flight levels, a current and competent pilot at the controls, sounds fine to me.

I think the concern was nighttime, mountainous, winter, deadline flying and worrying about fuel burn and a couple extra knots.  Take out one or two of the requirements and it sounds great. 

IMO there is a difference between flying over that stuff in the flight levels and landing/TO in it. 

[carqwik]

The mountains are as cold and dark tonight as they were 300 years ago...plan wisely!  (sign on the summit trail just up from the base of Mt. Moosilauke in NH)

[DanM20C]

1 minute ago, LANCECASPER said:

My vote is leave Saturday at daybreak after a good night's rest. You'll cover the 300 nm and be there by 9-10 a.m.

This is the best part of traveling by Mooney.  Sleep in my own comfy bed and still get to where I need to go by breakfast. 

Cheers,

Dan

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, MIm20c said:

I think the concern was nighttime, mountainous, winter, deadline flying and worrying about fuel burn and a couple extra knots.  Take out one or two of the requirements and it sounds great. 

I know...  I'm just trying to passive aggressively venting frustration with those pilots who tell me I shouldn't be doing something that is perfectly legal, common, and acceptable, just because THEY think it's dangerous. 

I know plenty of pilots who just stay in the pattern and only take off if it's calm, clear, and sunny. Good for them. But it's not me.

Flying is dangerous. Flying single engine is more dangerous. But we're pilots, it's what we do. Get over it. 

[Bartman]

I've done that type of flight many times in VMC, IMC, day, night hot, cold, and rain. Really in good weather any Mooney would do that mission and the time difference at 300nm is maybe 15 minutes, but some are safer may be more reliable for stated mission. Most recently I have been departing before daylight and returning with night departure in the J without turbo or ice protection, but I had to drive a couple of times lately. One of those days that I drove a plane went down about 100nm to the west killing all 4 on board and I think it was ice and SLD related, but that's why I decided to drive instead of fly.

A lot can change in 300nm and often that would include crossing at last one weather system into another, and sometimes conditions change when the sun sets both better and worse. If my reason for purchase a Mooney required flying into ski resort with night departure and landing I'd want a very well equipped plane with tools to do it safely every time, and have tools to get me out of trouble should conditions not be as forecast because we all know they are never exactly as forecast. That would include preflight and decision making, turbo and HP to climb, oxygen, reliable weather, reliable autopilot, and ice protection, all for risk reduction to shift the odds in my flavor. I also agree morning departure may be another good option when conditions dictate. 

[gsxrpilot]

I consider the range and speed of my Mooney to be significant safety features. As @Bartman said, a lot can happen when traveling 300nm. And the Mooney gives me the flexibility to change plans and go somewhere else when weather dictates. I also always have the option of going somewhere else and often times the speed allows me to make an end run around the weather and get in ahead of it.

And on the subject of fatigue and trying to get somewhere after a long week of work... None of us should ever fly if our head isn't in the game. I've flown my 252 between the Bay Area, California and Austin, TX. I'll leave mid-afternoon after working all week and get to Austin just after midnight. I find it very relaxing and so nice to climb in the plane, put work away for a few hours, while I climb into the flight levels and head for home in peace and quiet.

Stress, pressure to "get there", deadlines, etc. are all dangerous to our type of flying. But they are dangerous even without weather, mountains, winter, or darkness. And so another nice thing about flying ourselves is the flexibility to cancel... and we can cancel anytime from before the trip to just before landing.