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I never understand what is wrong with FBOs or flight schools. Caveat to this posting: it’s just my experience, it doesn’t mean it’s all like that.

i walked into an FBO today... making that effort to participate and talk aviation. Trying to go against my grain and engage (the habit of not stems from my previous experiences that were similar to this post).

the chief instructor for the flight school is there. I ask if they’re part 141 or 61 and mention that based on my last trip, I think it’s time I start working on my IFR. He says “yeah IFR is good” and without saying another word he turns around and walks away. Disappears. Not in his office, nothing. My next question was going to be “how do I get started with you”, but he was gone.

this has been my experience constantly. In 2011 when I started flight training the biggest problem was getting someone to work with me. The first FBO I walked into pretty much said “you’ll probably never finish so why start” (that’s paraphrased, not verbatim). They explained nothing and then chastised me for asking questions, etc. 

later I wanted to buy a Cessna and was literally told that I never would and it was stupid to buy a plane. 

Long story short, it seems like these are some of the problems across the community. If so, why? I’m post 9/11 gi bill so it’s free for me and easy money for them

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Good thing you're on Mooneyspace!  All this free advice and encouragement.  You can always find someone who agrees with you....and 1500 "other opinions" as well.

Most of us are pilots despite the nay-sayers.  You're fitting right in.

Damn the torpedoes.....

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Personally I think flight schools are the worst places to learn to fly. Find an independent CFII and go do it.

If you're a kid looking to train for a career, then go to school. As an adult, I'm looking to hire an employee to teach me to fly, get a rating, etc. and I treat it as such.

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Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Personally I think flight schools are the worst places to learn to fly. Find an independent CFII and go do it.

If you're a kid looking to train for a career, then go to school. As an adult, I'm looking to hire an employee to teach me to fly, get a rating, etc. and I treat it as such.

I’m considering it,  but would prefer part 141 since it would be $0 out of pocket for me. I’m not opposed to paying though (there are like 8 other things I want to spend my gi bill on.... PhD this spring, Oenology classes at the local school, the list goes on and on).

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Just now, gitmo234 said:

I’m considering it,  but would prefer part 141 since it would be $0 out of pocket for me. I’m not opposed to paying though (there are like 8 other things I want to spend my gi bill on.... PhD this spring, Oenology classes at the local school, the list goes on and on).

Sorry, forgot about the GI bill. Makes sense to find a school then. 

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I showed up at a school.

Said I have dough...

I want to get started...

I'd like to finish in 10 days...

What have you got for me?

Almost finished in 10 days...

That's a lot of work to do. And a ton of cash to  be drained, in a short period of time.

http://americanflyers.com/training/instrument/

Very highly organized system. Matched my needs pretty well. They had multiple qualified instructors, multiple planes to work with... no, or few, scheduling issues...

The school was near work. Training was done, flying IFR in the dark...often...

Go get it started... which ever way you choose!

Having  a Mooney is much better than renting/buying a C172.  See if there is a Mooney CFII near KHWY... that would be ideal... or take your Mooney to go see a known Mooney CFII.... or put up a known Mooney CfII near you.....

How are your learning skills?   The IR is similar to a college level class compared to the HS level class that VFR rating is aimed at.

The answer to 'what is wrong....?’    May be you didn't express what you wanted... I’m still not sure if I’m answering what you want to know. Or, are you just showing dissapointment with the aviation system in the USA?  :)

PP thoughts only. Not a CFI. But I have flown with a couple of really good Mooney CFIIs....

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, gitmo234 said:

I never understand what is wrong with FBOs or flight schools. Caveat to this posting: it’s just my experience, it doesn’t mean it’s all like that.

i walked into an FBO today... making that effort to participate and talk aviation. Trying to go against my grain and engage (the habit of not stems from my previous experiences that were similar to this post).

the chief instructor for the flight school is there. I ask if they’re part 141 or 61 and mention that based on my last trip, I think it’s time I start working on my IFR. He says “yeah IFR is good” and without saying another word he turns around and walks away. Disappears. Not in his office, nothing. My next question was going to be “how do I get started with you”, but he was gone.

this has been my experience constantly. In 2011 when I started flight training the biggest problem was getting someone to work with me. The first FBO I walked into pretty much said “you’ll probably never finish so why start” (that’s paraphrased, not verbatim). They explained nothing and then chastised me for asking questions, etc. 

later I wanted to buy a Cessna and was literally told that I never would and it was stupid to buy a plane. 

Long story short, it seems like these are some of the problems across the community. If so, why? I’m post 9/11 gi bill so it’s free for me and easy money for them

Finding a properly good instructor is something that takes time. you find one that you don't "click" with and the joy of flying will disappear. Id recommend really shopping around. I found my instructor from a recommendation from a friend. Granted I wasn't able to fly for a month or 2 due to the transition of leaving my previous instructor and meeting him, but he prepared me so well for my check ride, and I actually enjoyed flying. Currently waiting til January for him now for him to get time to start my instrument,  and I'm happy to wait knowing him and I click. Take your time and find an instructor. If a flight school told me "you're not gonna finish so don't start", steer clear of them and their very "positive" attitude. Their is no shortage of CFI's and CFII's.

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7 hours ago, Niko182 said:

 Their is no shortage of CFI's and CFII's.

Wanna bet?

To a certain extent, it depends on the area.  I can say for a fact that with the exception of the colleges in my area, there is a serious CFI shortage.  And it's getting worse, not better.

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Are you able to pack up your tent and move to somewhere like UND where you probably go farther with your GI Bill dollar? Seems like a good school too. There will be an estimated shortage of 125,000 MD’s by 2025; mostly specialists. Look into that if you can handle the workload. Or get into specialized nursing. Make crazy amounts of $$$. Get your IFR afterwards and later a new Ovation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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2 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

Are you able to pack up your tent and move to somewhere like UND where you probably go farther with your GI Bill dollar? Seems like a good school too. There will be an estimated shortage of 125,000 MD’s by 2025; mostly specialists. Look into that if you can handle the workload. Or get into specialized nursing. Make crazy amounts of $$$. Get your IFR afterwards and later a new Ovation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm completely outside the medical field. As a civilian I'm in in the government sector, and senior enough that I'm all but locked into Washington DC. The PhD is a "strong suggestion" by my employer and they are offering to possibly pay for it in lieu of GI Bill. I may have the opportunity to move to Colorado Springs or out to California but that chance is remote. 

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On 11/26/2017 at 9:01 PM, gitmo234 said:

I’m considering it,  but would prefer part 141 since it would be $0 out of pocket for me. I’m not opposed to paying though (there are like 8 other things I want to spend my gi bill on.... PhD this spring, Oenology classes at the local school, the list goes on and on).

FWIW my experience with the 2 different flight schools I've used is similar to yours - indifferent attitudes, little respect for my time and money, mediocre instruction.   I have no doubt there are good schools, as well as basically good instructors who are made to look bad because of their obligations to a particular school.  But the couple great instructors I've encountered so far are independent CFIIs who've either had full careers either in aviation or outside it and are motivated to stay active in their retirement.  I just finished my IFR written and am  starting to work with a CFII now who is the retired CEO of a semiconductor company to get my IFR wrapped up.  If it doesn't progress quickly, I'll probably just go with with this type of intensive option next summer:

http://www.iflyifr.com/instrument-training-courses/10-day-ifr-course/

I'm sure there's a variety of opinions on this type of intensive course, but it sure is appealing to finish the rating like taking off a bandaid in only 10 days.  Maybe you could get that option paid for as well?

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On 11/26/2017 at 8:36 PM, gitmo234 said:

later I wanted to buy a Cessna and was literally told that I never would and it was stupid to buy a plane.

 

Oh boy, you should have seen how many people that told me Mooneys are worthless, horrible planes, you won't like them, cramped, etc. Literally half of everyone I talked to asking for thoughts when I was looking at my plane. And most of those people have never owned one! It's appalling. 

On 11/26/2017 at 8:56 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Personally I think flight schools are the worst places to learn to fly. Find an independent CFII and go do it.

1

A few years ago I went to Jacksonville to look at flight schools. Stood around for 20 minutes. Girl walks in behind the desk, I'm geeking out asking questions, she has NO idea what I'm saying. Tells me to wait for a CFI. More waiting, CFI comes in, generic questions. Didn't preflight. Jump in the plane and zoom off. First thing he does, two whip stalls and steep turns. Got back and I was told I needed a minimum of $7,500 and "to expect around $12,000 to finish at 60 hours".

Then I poked around locally, found a retired USAF bomber pilot at a grass strip with a 152 outside his livingroom window. I've finished my PPL at 41 hours and $4,500. I've flown with him since, we meet up and drink beers together some afternoons to hangar fly, and start IFR with him next week. The man is a godsend.

11 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Wanna bet?

To a certain extent, it depends on the area.  I can say for a fact that with the exception of the colleges in my area, there is a serious CFI shortage.  And it's getting worse, not better.

Yup. I've sent 7 friends of mine to my current CFI. I really want to get it, he's at max capacity and the only CFI (that advertises, at least) within an hours drive. 

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I didn't take up flying until nearly 40 and so when the time came to find an instructor I started interviewing. The flight schools didn't like my approach which was fine with me as I didn't like their's either. I ended up interviewing five instructors. I flew with three of them, paying full rate for their time, before settling on one. He took me through both the private and instrument. Best thing I ever did.

He always ended each lesson with, "when do you want to fly again?" And he'd told me that "I'll let you know" was a perfectly acceptable answer. It was 100% on me to get through and get finished, but he was ready to fly any day of the year but Christmas.

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I researched all the schools around here, settled on the one I thought I wanted and spent about 45 minutes on the phone with the owner. Most of the time he was asking questions about me, everything from how I grew up, what kind of work I do, personality type questions, etc... Finally he said "I think I know who I want to put you with, but if you don't think it's a good fit then just let me know and we'll try someone else." It turned out that the CFI was a perfect fit. I flew with a few others as needed for phase checks before solo and check ride and each time was glad I had the CFI that I was set up with for the majority of it. 

Having the right fit I think makes all the difference. 

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G-234'  I also wonder about some of their attitudes, I used PIC for instrument refresher training a couple times paying for them to come to me at my expense. The first time I had a great instructor who beat me in shape good personality for flight, now the next year I hired PIC again the CFII seemed ok, I flew him back home he was then miserable maybe family pressures? we were to fly again the follow week, that was six years ago I still can't find him. PIC. acted like oh well.  All kind of ah's

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10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I didn't take up flying until nearly 40 and so when the time came to find an instructor I started interviewing. The flight schools didn't like my approach which was fine with me as I didn't like their's either. I ended up interviewing five instructors. I flew with three of them, paying full rate for their time, before settling on one. He took me through both the private and instrument. Best thing I ever did.

He always ended each lesson with, "when do you want to fly again?" And he'd told me that "I'll let you know" was a perfectly acceptable answer. It was 100% on me to get through and get finished, but he was ready to fly any day of the year but Christmas.

I wish I had that perspective when I started. first guy was no big deal... he hardly spoke and I only flew a few hours with him, then he went off to the airlines. Second guy seemed okay but a bit shady at times. Couldn't put my finger on it. Then one week I cut them a very large check. Several thousand to just book a few days, 3 hours of flight. Break for lunch and some ground instruction, then thee hours of flight. The last day during my break I got a text message to come home, my wife was getting the flu and she was sick. The CFI was nowhere to be found and late for our flight anyway so I talked to the school owner. He said it was 100% okay, take off and he'd pass the message. 

30 minutes later I start getting text messages from the CFI that were getting nasty. Cursing at me for leaving, threatening me, etc. I not only left him but left the school. They called me and apologized for that a few days later but it was time to go, regardless. Same school that was rude to me at the start and told me I'd never buy a plane and it was a stupid idea to, etc. Then all of a sudden they were very interested. "hey buddy, havent seen you in awhile, sorry about the incident...you still interested in that airplane? we'll work out a deal for parking if you buy it..." etc.

I bought the plane and found a better airport and CFI. Parked and maintained it with them. Havent so much as landed at the other airport since. 

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From the CFI and flight school point of view it is frustrating to deal with those students who start out strong, take a few lessons, then abruptly stop showing up.  The drop-out rate in initial PPL candidates is very high: A majority of the students who start fail to make it past 10 hours, I'm told.  Given that, I can see why it is hard to summon enthusiasm when a newbie pops up at the school and announces he's ready to learn to fly. 

This is not a new syndrome; I saw the same thing when I showed up at the flight school, jeez, 30+ years ago.  I announced I was ready to start and met lukewarm (at best) response.   But I found a good CFII (Thanks, Chester) and we stuck with each other through private and instrument.  He warmed up considerably when he saw I wasn't going to quit on him.

It helped that he was not a youngster looking to build hours and leave teaching ASAP.  

These days I train with type-experienced CFII instructors.  They get about $1000 for a full day (9 to 10 hours) instructing you in your plane.  The one I'm using this year has 8000 hours in make and model.  He books up weeks ahead. You pay half at booking:  No refunds if you cancel.  The sessions are  intense.  {I agree 100% with about 80% of what he says; the other 20% I think about later and usually I decide he was mostly right.}  

I could fly with a local CFII for half the money and learn 1/10 as much.  (actually, I couldn't -- the insurance mandates use of approved CFII from a short list)

 

 

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