Family pressures?

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

As Don Maxwell once said "I can teach an ape to land a Mooney". 

I would suggest that Maxwell can teach an ape to land a Mooney, but it would take a pretty sharp ape to land one well. I've been flying my plane 17 years and still don't consider myself able to land it really well. Or maybe I just not as sharp and most apes.

[SkyTrekker]

Just now, aggiepilot04 said:

 

I just asked about the 2018 PPP schedule last week. Here are the dates/locations.
Thanks 
February 9-11, 2018 - Palm Coast, FL
April 13-15, 2018 - Henderson, NV
June , 2018 - TBD (possibly in Fort Worth, TX)
September 7-9, 2018 - Manchester, NH
October 5-7, 2018 - Owensboro, KY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Thanks @aggiepilot04!  I see a trip to Ft. Worth in my future.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

The title of this is family pressures. I asked for pointers to overcoming objections and if this was normal. I didnt ask anyone if I had enough time or experience in the creation of this thread. If looking for past experiences is a rallying cry for my ego, then color me surprised.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

 

 

I don't know anything about you other than what you have posted in this thread. After reading your responses in the thread I can understand the apprehension of the in-laws.

Mixed in with the responses about experience is some great advice on dealing with "meddling in-laws" which you do not seem to be interested in because they don't line up with what you want to hear. Good luck in your future endeavors.

[aggiepilot04]

Thanks [mention=12060]aggiepilot04[/mention]!  I see a trip to Ft. Worth in my future.

I’m shooting for that one as well because it’s a short hop and I have a bfr due next Oct anyways. Maybe I’ll see you there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

I used to have a news crawler in the bittom of my computer at work. Just seeing all of the crashes let me kniw when Oshkosh was approaching . . . But I'd still like to fly up one day . . . But never solo, too many planes too close togehter, and I still remember the antics around me going into SnF on a year that was IMC from the souther edge of the Appalachians to about 40nm from Lakeland.

http://www.mooneycaravan.com/ 

[carusoam]

10 pages in...

I'm most amazed by...

The number of people that have the same or similar experience of taking someone else’s precious cargo for a flight...

• Blended families...
• split-up families...
• nieces and nephews...
• friend's kids...
• charitable flights...

Done properly...?

• some people actually look forward to going for an airplane ride.  
• Others will put up with the airplane ride to go somewhere distant and interesting.
• Some will never go further than a ride from the tie-down to the fuel pumps.
• Many just want to go once...

Demonstrated skills of responsibility go a long way...

We have a few people around here with automotive tech skills. Garage owners, to Car dealerships, to commercial specialty truck builders.  Responsible for the lifestyles of a few people to a few thousand people...

even the best keep learning... going a long ways to pick up the next rating, license or attend a weekend training event... you get to learn a lot just by talking with other Mooney pilots... It is amazing what comes up in conversation...

• Transition training
• PPP And MAPA membership
• Mooney fly-ins
• formation flying 

Side thought... I just left my daughter's car at a local garage, that looked a lot like NJMac's.... my third fuel pump this year... (three different cars)

Back on topic...

What all of this probably has in common with NJMac's situation...  

• Trust in you as a person, and as a pilot.
• trust in your skill as a driver, and as a pilot.  (We have a few race car drivers here as well...)
• trust in your decision making, and as a pilot.   (Decision making skills... hey Mom...I selected your daughter... and she said yes)  

If family is knowledgeable ...

• They already know you and have faith in you.
• If you have flying skills, you have demonstrated them for a long period of time...
• If you have flying decision skills, you have demonstrated them over the long period as well...
• Ever discuss the weather with family before getting in the car? (I'm not a big fan of driving through thunderstorms...)

It is really interesting to see how Aviation brings family together in many cases.... a common bond.

Many of us have said My Dad had/has a Mooney...

One item of responsibility that hasn't been mentioned...

Insurance.

Select the proper amount for your situation.  Nothing like waking up in a hospital, knowing you have coverage...  

How long have you been married?

How many kids do you have?

You can't rush greatness...  have a great Saturday!!!

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

2 hours ago, SkyTrekker said:

Then I intend to turn my focus to IFR training, but not before I sign up for the MAPA PPP.  Looking forward to learning the finer points of flying my 1970 E.  I wonder when their 2018 schedule will be published.  Can anyone tell me how many days the program lasts?

Before you start instrument training, take a little time and get to know your plane, how it handles, power settings, landing in different winds. Fly to a bunch of airports, say everything on the sectional within an hour or so, because they are all different . . . 

The MAPA PPP is one weekend, Friday morning through Sunday lunch. You will have 16 hours' classroom training and 4 hours with a CFII in your plane. It will count as completing a stage of FAA Wings and as a Flight Review. The certificate is handsome, but the notebook of solid information is worth it's weight in logbook endorsements. It's almost time for me to go again, to sharpen up those areas I've not been working on / using lately (it will also count as an IPC). Nothing like spending some quality time with serious Mooney pilots and experienced Mooney instructors!

[Becca]

On 11/23/2017 at 2:24 PM, NJMac said:

 

Anyone have to overcome family pressures when you first got started flying for holidays and such? As a background filler, I'm only 33 and 70 hrs in my logbook.

 

We had to drive 8 hrs Dayton to Atlanta because the in laws were afraid of me flying their daughter over "mountains". They wanted to have a conference call "intervention" to talk me out of flying. Im blessed that my wife shut that down but we did still drive to avoid immediate strife.

 

Planning on talking with them while we are here. Just curious if anyone had gone thru this before and if so, open to pointers.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

 

 

General life advice:  Don't insert yourself between your spouse and her family.  Let her deal with them. 

Its between you and your spouse if you fly somewhere together, not you and her and your in-laws.  And ultimately its up to her if she wants to get in the plane with you or not, everything considered including her tolerance for a long car drive vs her decision to defer to her parents.  She's a grown up, neither dad or husband should make the decision for her.  You're a grown up too, you can fly down and meet her there if she wants to drive herself.

Reading all ten pages, its clear some people aren't interested in our itty-bitty-GA planes, some people don't even like the big ones. I generally try to let people make their own decisions about flying with me and make sure they want to be there.  Coaxing is not an effective means of persuasion in this case.

As for the comments on relative inexperience, I suppose it depends on the actual weather day of the flight and the routing, etc.   I will say in the first few years after having my pilots license (and even now), I liked flying with other pilots.  Even though I was PIC and fully competent flying the plane itself, talking things through with another more experienced pilot, even if not an instructor, really helped me improve my flying, catch bad habits, and prevent errors.  Its different flying with another pilot than "taking care of" a passenger.

I don't know who I am to talk here.  My mother was my first passenger when I was 17 years old and the ink was still wet on my license.  My dad treats airplanes as "contraptions" and though he was willing to fund some of my flying, there was no way he was getting in an airplane with me.  Last year, though, he was coaxed in with Byron flying and an aerial tour of his favorite fishing lake, so I supposed it took getting him a pilot with 10,000 hours of experience and fishing to get him in the plane, but its unlikely that it will happen again.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Becca

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

You can't rush greatness...  have a great Saturday!!!

 

Kickoff is in half an hour. It's Gus' 4th season here, and didn't start auspiciously losing to last year's champion in our second game. But we've soundly defeated two No. 1 teams in three weeks, and are about to play one of them again. Here's to our defensive line keping the Dawgs penned up like before!

War Eagle! I'm flying tomorrow just for the hell of it, let's hope iit's a happy flight.

You may now resume the regularly scheduled discussion . . . . .

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, NJMac said:

It's really amazing how everyone approaches this conversation that, ironically was not even in the first question, from their own perspective and personal experiences / observations on others' experiences.

I like to think of myself as pretty unique having started a multimillion-dollar business and having the decision skills required to maintain and thrive in that environment.

I doubt there's many 33 year olds that could even rack their own car, let alone desire to do their own preventive maintenance. Or own a tool box worth more than both their and their wife's cars.

I'd argue that an airplane is just a series of interrelated systems. If you're able to comprehend how those systems work in harmony, I would think that would make you a successful pilot. Weather just being one of those systems impacting flight.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

You're on the wrong forum to be making such assumptions. Many of us have gone far beyond racking the family cars. You might think your accomplishments unusual and they may be, but far less so around these parts. This place is full of overachievers with above average incomes, IQs, bank accounts and egos. 

You know there are several other places on the web where you can find the very same demographic.  Here are just a few:

 https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/

Edited December 2, 2017 by Shadrach

[NJMac]

Kickoff is in half an hour. It's Gus' 4th season here, and didn't start auspiciously losing to last year's champion in our second game. But we've soundly defeated two No. 1 teams in three weeks, and are about to play one of them again. Here's to our defensive line keping the Dawgs penned up like before!
War Eagle! I'm flying tomorrow just for the hell of it, let's hope iit's a happy flight.
You may now resume the regularly scheduled discussion . . . . .

Oh man. Im heading home to go chear on my wife's dawgs...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Becca]

4 hours ago, NJMac said:

I'd argue that an airplane is just a series of interrelated systems. If you're able to comprehend how those systems work in harmony, I would think that would make you a successful pilot. Weather just being one of those systems impacting flight.

15 years as a highly qualified aerospace engineer, I will tell you flat out, though it is true that good pilots understand their systems (though there are some counter examples of amazing stick and rudder pilots who are completely mechanically inept)... there are many many people who understand systems better than any pilot and yet would make a terrible pilots.  They are two different skill sets.  And despite my engineering qualifications, I'd rather pay some to rack my car than do it myself, but my husband seems to enjoy continuously having our cars disassembled so I suppose it works out.  I try not to think about what our household tool box is worth, let alone get engaged in a pissing contest over it...

Good aeronautical decision making and good mechanical aptitude are two discrete skills sets, that may be related and both make good pilots, but they are different.  Don't get overconfident in this area.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Becca

[jaylw314]

I have to admit, I have more problems from my own parents about flying than I do from the in-laws.  I wonder what that means?

I'd like to think the in-laws are ok with me flying their daughter because they see me as a systematic, methodical problem solver and have seen me do so when their daughter's life has been at stake before.  Of course, that might just be what I think to stroke my ego.

It's hard to know how to approach your in-laws since we can't know what their problem is with you flying, but the possibilities are always:

1. It's all their shit.  Nothing to do except mitigate their impact on your life
2. It's everyone's shit.  The hard one, since there are 4 people that means 6 relationships to work on.
3. It's all your shit.

Notice that the only one that doesn't involve the pilot is #1.

For #2, sounds like you worked on the FIL constructively, the MIL not so much.  Was there anything you could have done differently that might have been more successful before, or might have been more constructive for later?  If you really want to work on those relationships, don't neglect the relationship between you and your wife, and her and her parents.  You haven't mentioned much about what your wife has said about flying to you and her parents.  You've also suggested some amount of lack of honesty on your part with her, about how much you expect this project to cost.  Does she actually know how important this is to you if she's not come to your defense?  Have you given her an opportunity to tell you what she thinks about flying?  All food for though for working on those relationships

In short, you're unlikely to get helpful relationship advice for #2 from here because it's complicated and your life.

And that leads us to #3.  We all hope it's not that, but it is possible that something about your personality or behaviors in the past make your in-laws distrustful of your risk-taking, and make your wife fail to come to your aid.  But the only input we can have is to ask how good your self-assessment is?  And, of course, when someone says their ability to self-assess is great, that doesn't mean anything since the 5 dangerous attitudes all imply difficulty in self-assessment.

I hope I'm not speaking for everyone (OK, I kind of am), but I hear a lot of this whenever anyone asks the question that starts with "How should I do this?" rather than "Should I do this?"  We all start asking ourselves if you're a #3, which is a little unfair, but nobody who shares this love of flying wants to see a fellow pilot end up as a result in an NTSB report.

TL,DR: Work on your relationships with everyone involved, and honestly ask yourself how much of this is really your problem.

 

[NJMac]

I have to admit, I have more problems from my own parents about flying than I do from the in-laws.  I wonder what that means?
I'd like to think the in-laws are ok with me flying their daughter because they see me as a systematic, methodical problem solver and have seen me do so when their daughter's life has been at stake before.  Of course, that might just be what I think to stroke my ego.
It's hard to know how to approach your in-laws since we can't know what their problem is with you flying, but the possibilities are always:

1. It's all their shit.  Nothing to do except mitigate their impact on your life
2. It's everyone's shit.  The hard one, since there are 4 people that means 6 relationships to work on.
3. It's all your shit.

Notice that the only one that doesn't involve the pilot is #1.
For #2, sounds like you worked on the FIL constructively, the MIL not so much.  Was there anything you could have done differently that might have been more successful before, or might have been more constructive for later?  If you really want to work on those relationships, don't neglect the relationship between you and your wife, and her and her parents.  You haven't mentioned much about what your wife has said about flying to you and her parents.  You've also suggested some amount of lack of honesty on your part with her, about how much you expect this project to cost.  Does she actually know how important this is to you if she's not come to your defense?  Have you given her an opportunity to tell you what she thinks about flying?  All food for though for working on those relationships
In short, you're unlikely to get helpful relationship advice for #2 from here because it's complicated and your life.
And that leads us to #3.  We all hope it's not that, but it is possible that something about your personality or behaviors in the past make your in-laws distrustful of your risk-taking, and make your wife fail to come to your aid.  But the only input we can have is to ask how good your self-assessment is?  And, of course, when someone says their ability to self-assess is great, that doesn't mean anything since the 5 dangerous attitudes all imply difficulty in self-assessment.
I hope I'm not speaking for everyone (OK, I kind of am), but I hear a lot of this whenever anyone asks the question that starts with "How should I do this?" rather than "Should I do this?"  We all start asking ourselves if you're a #3, which is a little unfair, but nobody who shares this love of flying wants to see a fellow pilot end up as a result in an NTSB report.
TL,DR: Work on your relationships with everyone involved, and honestly ask yourself how much of this is really your problem.
 

It would be hard to respect or appreciate a response more than yours. Thank you

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I would suggest that Maxwell can teach an ape to land a Mooney, but it would take a pretty sharp ape to land one well. I've been flying my plane 17 years and still don't consider myself able to land it really well. Or maybe I just not as sharp and most apes.

Don, Ill be in Dallas next Fri to Sunday working with Joe, then off to Kerrville for a week to train a new Ultra owner. Unfortunately, I dont do Primate training or I would help

 

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Kickoff is in half an hour. It's Gus' 4th season here, and didn't start auspiciously losing to last year's champion in our second game. But we've soundly defeated two No. 1 teams in three weeks, and are about to play one of them again. Here's to our defensive line keping the Dawgs penned up like before!

War Eagle! I'm flying tomorrow just for the hell of it, let's hope iit's a happy flight.

You may now resume the regularly scheduled discussion . . . . .

Gus has impressed me ever since he took the job.   I’m glad to see him continue with the fast pace offense that Tommy was so successful with.  

[NJMac]

Have to type something

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Amelia]

My grandfather taught flying in Jennies during WWI. My father learned to fly after WWII, made a career of it.. As far as I know, my grandfather never climbed in an airplane again, even with his son. My husband logged many hours of F-4 time, back-seat, but never got his own ticket. Said he had more confidence in me than his own abilities. Used to making risky decisions in medicine and not turning back, being pressed for time, being up all night and tired, being sure HE knew what he was doing always, no need to ask second opinions,  made him a poor risk, he claimed. So a successful career, plenty of brains, ambition, and technical expertise, weren't enough, in his mind. Worked out well for me! He is the world's best, calmest passenger.

The mildly nervous but motivated passenger can be reassured, but I haven't been successful at talking truly frightened people into enjoying the ride, no matter how smooth, fast, or beautiful, the trip, or how perfect the landing. They will readily admit it was a fine trip, and they wouldn't have gotten where they needed to go any other way, but they hated every glorious second of it. The phobics impose their own terror on others, unfortunately, and seem impervious to reason.Other than putting Prozac in the municipal reservoir, I have no useful ideas.

[DonMuncy]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Don, Ill be in Dallas next Fri to Sunday working with Joe, then off to Kerrville for a week to train a new Ultra owner. Unfortunately, I dont do Primate training or I would help

 

If you have some free time, give me a call. I'll buy coffee, lunch or dinner.

[Hank]

Just now, Amelia said:

The mildly nervous but motivated passenger can be reassured, but I haven't been successful at talking truly frightened people into enjoying the ride, no matter how smooth, fast, or beautiful, the trip, or how perfect the landing. They will readily admit it was a fine trip, and they wouldn't have gotten where they needed to go any other way, but they hated every glorious second of it. The phobics impose their own terror on others, unfortunately, and seem impervious to reason.Other than putting Prozac in the municipal reservoir, I have no useful ideas.

I've had only one truly frightened passenger. Took 2 ladies from work flying at their request; it was one of them's first ever flight, and the other one's first small plane flight. The first was so nervous she had to stop and pee on the short drive to the airport. To help relax her, I let her sit in the plane in the hangar, with the big bifold door closed. She was comfortable,  but when I pushed the airplane door closed, I  thought she was gonna freak out!

When we took off, I raised the gear and asked how she was doing, with a reminder that I could be back on the ground in 3 minutes. With a look of wonder on her face, she said No, this is great! So we had a nice time flightseeing all over. He husband became my home AC guy. Took the other one, her husband and my wife to dinner the next county over. Left after work, came back after dark, a magical experience for them.

Don't push, just show up several times in a rental car. Being able to pop over and back much more often than you can make the laborious long-weekend-only drive will help them to see the bright side. Good luck with them! 

[mike_elliott]

30 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

If you have some free time, give me a call. I'll buy coffee, lunch or dinner.

wilco

 

[Amelia]

My husband's opera-buff partner had tix for four to see Pavarotti and the Met on tour in Cleveland. Alas, he ran late at the office, they had a sitter issue, and there was no way we could make an 8:00 curtain time driving. Those seats were dear, too.  I offered to fly us up to KBKL, a three-block walk from the venue. We took off at 7:30 into a glorious sunset, greased the landing at Lakefront just as the lights were coming on, breathlessly settled into our seats five minutes before curtain time. It was a magnificent performance, followed by a good after-theater supper. Every star in the galaxy was twinkling as we climbed in the plane to go home, 70 miles south, severe clear and glassy smooth  the whole way.. Three of us couldn't stop grinning at the wonder of it all. The fourth swore it was the most horrible experience of her life. Her eyes were shut tight most of the way. Go figger.

[carusoam]

Could be Cleveland...

Last time I flew there was with Alan and Chris.  My eyes were closed for a good portion of the flight too...

Asleep in the back of a V tail bonanzer... what a horrible experience... I was fighting the tail wag to stay awake...  

Memories of a Mooney fly-in gone wild.

Cleveland is a great city with the RRHoF an ordinary walking distance away.

That would have been about 20 hours of driving, round trip.  It was an impromptu decision after Mooney lunch at  Brett's.  

Flying generates great memories.  Easy to recall, too...

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

Thought I'd bring this back up. Finally have my MIL on my side.  Getting to make the trip to CTJ this weekend. Amazing what 200 more hours and an IR does to the family's chill factor.  

[201er]

On 11/26/2017 at 12:00 AM, 201er said:

At the risk of being a party pooper I think the inlaws might be right this time. At 70 hours you haven't even had the chance to reach the apex of the statistical danger curve. You are not experienced enough to judge if you are experienced enough. With more experience you'll understand that. You'll also look back and say, wow I can't believe how inexperienced and confident i used to be and what risk i put my passengers in. 

The more argumentative/defensive you get about your flying only the more inexperienced it makes you look. I think most of the experienced pilots I know would be less reluctant to scrap a flight if necessary. The ability to be indifferent or at least less enthusiastic about the necessity of making a flight makes us better pilots. Gettheritis comes from the other side. 

Personally, I would suggest doing 200-500 hours of airplane flying and get an instrument rating before worrying about convincing people of your qualifications. When you're genuinely qualified, you won't have to. Then if the in laws are still grumbling, then they're being unreasonable.

^