Todd Cullen Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 You guys care to share your power settings for instrument approach and descents? New to me m20j and just want some numbers to start with please. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsalant Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Todd, Welcome to the world of M20J flying. It's a good world ! I've attached my checklist which has, on the second page, all the power settings you will need. Try them out for your bird and tweek them slightly if necessary. One thing you might want to consider is a Mooney PPP course. I think doing one of these courses is good if you are new to Mooneys... One of the things I see Mooney pilots doing wrong is flying the approach too fast. The recommended settings and speeds are good. Mooneys love to go fast and Mooney pilots love to fly them fast. IMHO this is not the way to go in IMC. If you agree, then don't fly practice approaches this way. Please let me know if you have any comments on the checklist or speeds ! Fly safe. By doing so you make us all look good ! Evan Salant, CFI, CFII, SEL, SES, glider... checklist1.30.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyBob Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 It was discussed here many times and you can search different topics. People like to use MAPA manual numbers. I also started with those and then simplyfied my procedure. I plan descent pretty early. No speed brakes. I want to be at the IAF altitude ( before I reach the IAF) around 120 kts - 20" usually 2300 RMP. Speed still bleeding off in this point. As I reach IAF I usually go 18" and 2300 RPM ( RPM setting from the cruise. Sometimes I go 2500 RPM in preparation for missed. No real difference here). It slows me down to 115kts. I keep this on my descent to the FAF. At the FAF I drop the gear and first notch of flaps. It slows me down to 95-100kts and gives me 500 fpm descent with nice attitude. And I go all the way down. Full flaps if not too windy. I used to slow down ( 13-15" MAP) before I reached MAP but I don't do it anymore as I figured out that there is enough time and room to slow down to 75-80KTS even from the minimums to the runway. Works for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsalant Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Yes. I too like to set RPM for missed (even prop control to max is reasonable). At low power you won't actually be at 2500 RPM. But it's good to be there. Every approach in IMC (or practice) should be flown with the expectation of going missed. Too many accidents from people going below minimums for no good reason. Many instructors routinely have you take off foggles at mins. Better to sometimes practice the missed. Edited November 19, 2017 by epsalant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Cullen Posted November 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Thank you guys so much...will help transition to this plane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Transition training is good MAPA numbers are good MAPA PPP is a great resource, a great book of numbers specific to your airframe... Things to look into in case this stuff is new to you... PP thoughts, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 Damn! That is a comprehensive checklist! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 For @Todd Cullen visit Mooney Aircraft Pilots Assn (www.mooneypilots.com). There are some free articles, I think one is on flying the J model (written by Bob Kromer, test pilot who became Engineering VP then CEO). They host several Pilot Proficiency Programs around the country, seems the next one is in Florida in Feb. It's 16 classroom hours and 4 flight hours with a CFII in your plane, Fri morning through Sun lunch. Lots of good information, a notebook to treasure and review periodically, etc. It counts as a Flight Review, IPC and FAA WINGS. I've been twice, the first time a whole month after I finished my insurance dual when I bought my C model. I highly recommend it, you will learn how to fly your Mooney the right way before picking up too many bad habits (that's why I went back five years later, to check for bad habits that had crept in). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsalant Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: Damn! That is a comprehensive checklist! Yes. Note it's version 30 ! How do you spell OCD ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Just now, epsalant said: Yes. Note it's version 30 ! How do you spell OCD ? No kidding! I started on Rev 2 about six years ago, never got around to finishing it . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 3 hours ago, epsalant said: Todd, Welcome to the world of M20J flying. It's a good world ! I've attached my checklist which has, on the second page, all the power settings you will need. Try them out for your bird and tweek them slightly if necessary. One thing you might want to consider is a Mooney PPP course. I think doing one of these courses is good if you are new to Mooneys... One of the things I see Mooney pilots doing wrong is flying the approach too fast. The recommended settings and speeds are good. Mooneys love to go fast and Mooney pilots love to fly them fast. IMHO this is not the way to go in IMC. If you agree, then don't fly practice approaches this way. Please let me know if you have any comments on the checklist or speeds ! Fly safe. By doing so you make us all look good ! Evan Salant, CFI, CFII, SEL, SES, glider... checklist1.30.pdf +1 for the MAPA PPP course. GREAT COURSE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Nice list, Evan! See if you can add a FF Check early in the T/O run, prior to Airspeed alive call out... you have a few seconds, and it is nice to know all the pumps are delivering fuel as expected... goes well with MP and RPM... but adds the additional info on the fuel pumps... I sense rev 31 coming soon... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 Set prop to 2400 or 2500, and throttle to maintain the airspeed you want, usually 140 KIAS in the terminal environment, and 120 getting vectored for an approach, and 100 on the approach. Dont make it harder than it needs to be. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob - S50 Posted November 20, 2017 Report Share Posted November 20, 2017 If you are talking about instrument approaches, my rule of thumb is to be below gear speed before I hit the first fix (or transition fix) on the approach. That would be 2300 RPM/20" which will give you about 120-125 KIAS or so. I like to be below flap speed prior to the FAF. For me that's about 2300 RPM/15" which will give me about 100-105 KIAS. Keep in mind that you may need the gear down well before the FAF depending on the approach. There are MANY approaches with step down fixes prior to the FAF that require significant descent angles. If you try to do that gear up, you may need idle power (and the gear horn) to stay below gear speed. If you keep the gear horn off (recommended so you don't get used to it) you'll need 13-15" of MP and the airplane will accelerate to above gear speed. A rule of thumb I use is 200'/NM. If I divide the altitude loss required by the distance between fixes and I get more than 200'/NM, I'll need the gear down to make the descent and stay below 130 KIAS. I start at the FAF and work backward. I find the first segment that will allow me to easily make the descent gradient without gear. Then when I'm flying the approach, I'll put the gear down prior to the next segment. Everyone is different, but I've started flying my final (after the FAF) with gear down and flaps up and speed or 75-90 KIAS. That way if I have to go around I won't have any pitch change from the flaps coming up. If I break out at 200', I can go idle, select full flaps, be on speed, and spooled up prior to landing. And if you find yourself too high and fast to lower the gear, do what we did in the DC9; slow down to go down. Level off, power back, dirty up (gear and maybe even full flaps), then descend about 10 knots below the limiting speed. If that won't do it, just plan on going missed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 Transition training is good MAPA numbers are good MAPA PPP is a great resource, a great book of numbers specific to your airframe... Things to look into in case this stuff is new to you... PP thoughts, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- I’m a MAPA member and don’t find the numbers on the private side of their webpage. Where are they? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 @xcrmckenna Not sure about the other places.... but, The 'key' numbers are printed in the PPP training manual (?) That is a handout when you take the PPP course. With a little thought process a Mooney pilot can generate a few on his own... Take the known power settings from the POH. Use the MP and rpm/100 added together.... know that 1” of MP can be subbed for 100 rpm Two sets of key numbers that get used often are 65% and 75% BHP... Rough example: If your POH says 65% bhp is 20” and 2600 rpm... 65% bhp can be found at a key number of 46. And can be estimated to work for other pairs like 21”, 2500 and 22”, 2400 And 23”, 2300 etc... That is as good as I can get working from a fuzzy old memory... verify you numbers against your POH... it should make sense. If it doesn't, don't use this method alone... The PPP is a great training and weekend event if you get the chance... PP thoughts only, from old memories, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/19/2017 at 7:01 PM, carusoam said: Nice list, Evan! See if you can add a FF Check early in the T/O run, prior to Airspeed alive call out... you have a few seconds, and it is nice to know all the pumps are delivering fuel as expected... goes well with MP and RPM... but adds the additional info on the fuel pumps... I sense rev 31 coming soon... Best regards, -a- Yeah, that's part of my T/O callouts--"Fuel pressure, fuel flow," since they are not on the instrument cluster in my panel (they're on an EI and EDM-700 respectively) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epsalant Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 On 11/19/2017 at 10:01 PM, carusoam said: Nice list, Evan! See if you can add a FF Check early in the T/O run, prior to Airspeed alive call out... you have a few seconds, and it is nice to know all the pumps are delivering fuel as expected... goes well with MP and RPM... but adds the additional info on the fuel pumps... I sense rev 31 coming soon... Best regards, -a- Yup ! Up to version 31 ! Why not. The FF is right there on the JPI. One nice thing about a fixed pitch prop is that RPM and power are more closely coupled. You can have a good RPM and manifold pressure and not be developing the expected power. FF doesn't guarantee that either, but one more piece of the puzzle. In flight, airspeed (in level flight) best indicator, on take off, best to know expected take off distance and abort TO it doesn't look like you will be airborne by that point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 And for the OP, I use: Level clean: 2400/17" 105 KIAS Level dirty: 2400/22" 105 KIAS -500 fpm clean: 2000/16" 105 KIAS -500 fpm dirty: 2400/17" 105 KIAS I like 105 KIAS on approaches because my brain kept falling behind the plane at 120 KIAS, and easier to slow the plane down from minimums. It's halfway between 90 KIAS and 120 KIAS, so on timed approaches, the MAP is halfway between those times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted November 22, 2017 Report Share Posted November 22, 2017 20 hours ago, xcrmckenna said: I’m a MAPA member and don’t find the numbers on the private side of their webpage. Where are they? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The MAPA safety group is not the same as MAPA. 2 different organizations. To get the "book" you will have to have someone give it to you or sign up for their course. www.mapasafety.com is the MAPA safety group 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack46 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Choose what you like for descent from altitude. Try to keep at least 15"/2500 to keep the engine warm. For approaches, I set 13"/2500. With the airplane clean, the airspeed will settle around100KIAS. From there at the FAF, I lower the gear and first notch of flaps. This yields about 90KIAS for the final approach. Hope this helps. Try these numbers and adjust to what suits you best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 hours ago, Jack46 said: Try to keep at least 15"/2500 to keep the engine warm. For approaches, I set 13"/2500. At least in theory, higher MAP and lower RPM keeps the engine warmer than low MAP and higher RPM. So 20"/2000 would keep the engine warmer than 15"/2500. Can't say I've noticed a huge difference in reality, but at least it makes for a quieter cabin on descent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) On 11/19/2017 at 5:57 PM, epsalant said: Todd, Welcome to the world of M20J flying. It's a good world ! I've attached my checklist which has, on the second page, all the power settings you will need. Try them out for your bird and tweek them slightly if necessary. One thing you might want to consider is a Mooney PPP course. I think doing one of these courses is good if you are new to Mooneys... One of the things I see Mooney pilots doing wrong is flying the approach too fast. The recommended settings and speeds are good. Mooneys love to go fast and Mooney pilots love to fly them fast. IMHO this is not the way to go in IMC. If you agree, then don't fly practice approaches this way. Please let me know if you have any comments on the checklist or speeds ! Fly safe. By doing so you make us all look good ! Evan Salant, CFI, CFII, SEL, SES, glider... checklist1.30.pdf That checklist Is three times as Long as the entire checklist set for the 747. Not that it’s good info, but most of it is technique, flow, or procedure, not really checklist. Takeoff for example, you should know that you should have 2700 RPM, oil pressure, fuel pressure, and rotate at 63. But you can’t look at a checklist for that, it’s a procedure. And that checklist offers to switch tanks just before runup, and just before landing, which has killed folks in the past. . I like the one printed on the panel of my 201. Nothing to add or take away. It’s a legal placard. Edited November 29, 2017 by jetdriven 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 On 11/29/2017 at 1:11 AM, jetdriven said: And that checklist offers to switch tanks just before runup, and just before landing, which has killed folks in the past. Think very carefully about changing a tank before a critical moment. Both for takeoff and landing. If less than X gallons in your tank then yes, by all means swap to the fullest. However swapping tanks at the threshold violates the don’t mess with something that ain’t broke mantra - id rather find out about that bit of water that didn’t sump when I’m trying to start or at cruise (preferably within glide of an airport), not 200’ AGL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Gravel Posted November 30, 2017 Report Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 hour ago, bradp said: Think very carefully about changing a tank before a critical moment. Both for takeoff and landing. If less than X gallons in your tank then yes, by all means swap to the fullest. However swapping tanks at the threshold violates the don’t mess with something that ain’t broke mantra - id rather find out about that bit of water that didn’t sump when I’m trying to start or at cruise (preferably within glide of an airport), not 200’ AGL. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.