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Mooneys at Jewell Aviation


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4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't believe one guy could get all the inspections panels off, take a quick look, and get them back on in 10 hours. Never mind changing the oil, or checking anything else on the list. And if it's 5 guys working the 10 hours, then it's 50 hours, not 10.

Agreed, in my opinion something is being missed in the job, unless of course they are the “patron saints of cheap annual” and work for the fun of it.

Clarence

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So for these inexpensive full service annuals, I am curious about a few items.

Is the interior getting pulled to inspect the cage? I'm not saying it needs to be done every year, but whomever is deciding not to do it needs to be quite certain that if the the interiorwas pulled, everything underneath would be in good shape and demonstrably airworthy.

Are all of the belly skins being removed?

Wing panels?

Is it prudent to repack wheel bearings at 50-100hrs and 12 months? If so, why?

If one has a well monitored, conforming engine and all temps are in line, is it prudent to remove and clean injectors every year when it should be pretty obvious that injectors are free of blockages? 

These are all questions an IA must ask. If they have never seen the plane before, the answer to all of the above is going to be yes. And it's going to take longer. If your IA insists on tearing out the interior annually just because it's written on a list of recommendations, I'd probably ask why that would be considered prudent.

When I do an owner assist, my IA spends 8 man hours physically looking over a bird that was already opened and on jacks when he arrived.  I order the AD list from a service and my IA ensures compliance. Everything is bagged and tagged and visible.  Likely around 18 man hours just to open, inspect and close. Of course, that never happens, because there are always things to address. In 12 owner assisted annuals, I have never gotten away with a zero squawk inspection. Some years are pretty easy as was this year. But then last year we OH'd the prop and and IRAN'd the nose gear. 

In the case of these inexpensive annuals, every hour spent need not be by an IA. When I was in college, I worked for a repair station in between semesters. I was paid $8hr in the late 90s. The shop rate was around $40 per hour IIRC. If the shop has entry level young folks making a basic hourly rate, much of the tedious busy work can be performed by low cost entry level labor. Of course we are quickly creating an environment where young, eager, low cost labor is difficult to find. I really enjoyed my time as a shop rat and it never occurred to me that I deserved a "living wage".

 

Edited by Shadrach
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I suspect I have about 25 hours in the annual on my aircraft. (doing it my self) The annual is complete, just working off the squawks now.  Jewell prices are great! I suppose I will have to pay these guys a visit and see  how I can get my own annual done in a day.

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All good,  Missouri  is affordable.

Went to an auto body shop yesterday.

Their shop rate was 110 for mechanical and electrical work. 75 for body work. 

Makes me feel good about what I charge for side work. 

Glad the Jewell guys can keep the doors open. Sounds like a great group of people that keep GA moving. 

When worked in a few shops in Chicago, one shop charged 750 for the annual, 1000 for complex and 1200 for twins. We'd almost loose money on the annuals, but when they'd come back and want new carpet installed, you'd make more installing the carpet or removing an engine than the annual. 

The other shop had no flat rate,  charged at the time 65/hr. Every nut,bolt, screw, qt of liquid, length of something was logged and charged for. I was paid 15/hr. So the boss made a little from my work, and  I learned a lot. We had nice customers, and the boss had a good reputation. He was known at the time to be expensive, but everything got inspected!! Every questioned I asked was the right or long way to do something. I never heard "nah we're not gonna do that." I once had a m20f belly all together. The last screw I put in was stripped, I prosealed it into place, because I didn't want to take the belly apart. Turns out the belly was taken apart by the owner a month later. Boss got a phone call, I got a Strong lesson to do things the right way. That was 16 years ago.

Now I have my own Mooney to install the belly correctly...every time! I really enjoyed my time working with him!

Thanks Lynn!!

-Matt 

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Is it prudent to repack wheel bearings at 50-100hrs and 12 months? If so, why?


I decided to have mine done this year by a newly established firm at my field and next door to my hangar. Funny you mention bearings - he found a wheel bearing out of round. We have no idea what could cause this. His best guess is FOD. No damage to axles.

c17623d0b66adedd9170b577a110bb4a.jpg




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1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

 


I decided to have mine done this year by a newly established firm at my field and next door to my hangar. Funny you mention bearings - he found a wheel bearing out of round. We have no idea what could cause this. His best guess is FOD. No damage to axles.

c17623d0b66adedd9170b577a110bb4a.jpg




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Could have been defective as well. For the bearin race to go flat like that, I would suspect that the bearing underneath is crushed. It would take a catastrophic failure to damage an axel. This bearing gave no warning of its failure? How many hours and years in service?

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4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The posted price is $750, the posted shop rate is $75/hour so 10 hours are being devoted to the “annual”. If we use 45 hours over $750 we get an hourly rate of $16.66, which isn’t even a wage rate, let alone a shop rate.  

Clarence

 

The whole point of a flat rate is that they may use whatever mix of labor they chose to provide the offered service. They may have two guys making $12hr jack the plane and remove every panel. The plane could be jacked and open in about 3 hours at an internal labor cost of $72. Then the IA at $30hr spends a day with a mirror and a flashlight checking off line items at $240. Now we're at $312 on labor and a pretty good assessment of the aircrafts condition has been made. There's not a lot of margin in the inspection, but Jewell has been there for a long time. I'm betting most PPE has been long paid off. No one's getting rich that's for sure. 

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3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The whole point of a flat rate is that they may use whatever mix of labor they chose to provide the offered service. They may have two guys making $12hr jack the plane and remove every panel. The plane could be jacked and open in about 3 hours at an internal labor cost of $72. Then the IA at $30hr spends a day with a mirror and a flashlight checking off line items at $240. Now we're at $312 on labor and a pretty good assessment of the aircrafts condition has been made. There's not a lot of margin in the inspection, but Jewell has been there for a long time. I'm betting most PPE has been long paid off. No one's getting rich that's for sure. 

I’ve no idea what formula they use.  But flat rating jobs leads to short cuts with the goal being lower costs and greater profits, not necessarily greater quality.

Clarence

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Ain't Mooneyspace great?  We get all over annuals that are too expensive, and then we beat up on shops that are too cheap.

If I were a mechanic, I'd work on washing machines and just have to deal with grateful housewives.

:wacko:

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1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I’ve no idea what formula they use.  But flat rating jobs leads to short cuts with the goal being lower costs and greater profits, not necessarily greater quality.

Clarence

I agree with regard to completing repairs, but I think an inspection is a pretty predictable set of tasks. However, I'm not sure how they hang all single engine retracts on the same hook. A Deb, a Comanche, a 182RG and a Mooney are all different animals. Do they take the same mount of resources to inspect? I don't know, maybe they're close enough.

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Just now, Shadrach said:

I agree with regard to completing repairs, but I think an inspection is a pretty predictable set of tasks. However, I'm not sure how they hang all single engine retracts on the same hook. A Deb, a Comanche, a 182RG and a Mooney are all different animals. Do they take the same mount of resources to inspect? I don't know, maybe they're close enough.

To keep with Mooney’s, a manual gear gear A,B or C model carries the same price as a deiced Bravo, Ovation, or Acclaim.

Clarence

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3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

To keep with Mooney’s, a manual gear gear A,B or C model carries the same price as a deiced Bravo, Ovation, or Acclaim.

Clarence

Certainly a spread there. You would know better than I with regard to how significant.

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2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Ain't Mooneyspace great?  We get all over annuals that are too expensive, and then we beat up on shops that are too cheap.

If I were a mechanic, I'd work on washing machines and just have to deal with grateful housewives.

:wacko:

This is funny and true. I just shared the observation about me seeing a lot of Mooney tails at a particular shop ( I thought that it was great to see so many Mooney's in the area). Then I thought I would share what I thought was good pricing and service. Next thing you know the thread takes a turn to, "well they must be skipping items" etc.. Is it really impossible they might be a good shop (they have been around long time) and impossible the experience was a good one, great customer service and good pricing.

Sometimes I wonder if the keyboard sometimes takes some fun out of our camaraderie....If I was sharing a lunch and telling the same story about my annual and what it cost, would the person sitting across from me really say, "Wow..$1240, they can't be doing a good job, must have skipped some items, there is no way they are doing a thorough job at that price"..If so I would probably move to another table.

I guess the bottle of beer is either half full or half empty depending on how you look at things.

 

-Tom

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We have menu pricing at my dealership for oil changes and grease jobs (including a 31 point inspection.....31 points, not 40 or 50) and it is very common in the trucking industry to see.  Those that do NOT have menu pricing, in other words bill time and material, usually are not doing a lot of oil changes or don't WANT to do a lot of oil changes.  The menu pricing ends up at about half my normal labor rate, BUT this work very commonly leads to other repairs that we find (and the customer appreciates getting fixed at home instead of on the road) that we complete at normal rates.  Additionally, I have a few techs that are really good at this repair segment and we have customers that expressly ask for those techs.

I had not really looked at our discounting (or menu pricing) as we're doing a lower quality job................  guess it's all a matter of perspective.  I guess that means the blown tire my local operator had replaced at a major hub on his Conquest during a charter flight was really high quality work since it ran $5,000 (not counting sending a second plane out to complete the trip because it took two days to complete as well).

Tom

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2 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

We have menu pricing at my dealership for oil changes and grease jobs (including a 31 point inspection.....31 points, not 40 or 50) and it is very common in the trucking industry to see.  Those that do NOT have menu pricing, in other words bill time and material, usually are not doing a lot of oil changes or don't WANT to do a lot of oil changes.  The menu pricing ends up at about half my normal labor rate, BUT this work very commonly leads to other repairs that we find (and the customer appreciates getting fixed at home instead of on the road) that we complete at normal rates.  Additionally, I have a few techs that are really good at this repair segment and we have customers that expressly ask for those techs.

I had not really looked at our discounting (or menu pricing) as we're doing a lower quality job................  guess it's all a matter of perspective.  I guess that means the blown tire my local operator had replaced at a major hub on his Conquest during a charter flight was really high quality work since it ran $5,000 (not counting sending a second plane out to complete the trip because it took two days to complete as well).

Tom

Excellent points. Lynn Mace figures flat rate annuals are something of a loss leader. He does not cut corners and planes he's seeing for the first time take longer. OTOH, satisfied new customers become regulars and bring the plane for installations and repairs.  And they tell their friends. 

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On 11/12/2017 at 8:36 AM, M20Doc said:

The posted price is $750, the posted shop rate is $75/hour so 10 hours are being devoted to the “annual”. If we use 45 hours over $750 we get an hourly rate of $16.66, which isn’t even a wage rate, let alone a shop rate.  

Clarence

 

But it is Canadian Dollars, Clarence :)

 

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30 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

We have menu pricing at my dealership for oil changes and grease jobs (including a 31 point inspection.....31 points, not 40 or 50) and it is very common in the trucking industry to see.  Those that do NOT have menu pricing, in other words bill time and material, usually are not doing a lot of oil changes or don't WANT to do a lot of oil changes.  The menu pricing ends up at about half my normal labor rate, BUT this work very commonly leads to other repairs that we find (and the customer appreciates getting fixed at home instead of on the road) that we complete at normal rates.  Additionally, I have a few techs that are really good at this repair segment and we have customers that expressly ask for those techs.

I had not really looked at our discounting (or menu pricing) as we're doing a lower quality job................  guess it's all a matter of perspective.  I guess that means the blown tire my local operator had replaced at a major hub on his Conquest during a charter flight was really high quality work since it ran $5,000 (not counting sending a second plane out to complete the trip because it took two days to complete as well).

Tom

We do the same thing at all three of our dealerships with menu pricing.  We also  sell a three pack of oil changes and unless there is an up sell we lose money on every single one. However year after year analysis shows that our customer retention is higher than the other dealerships in the region and the up sells from the multi-point inspection more than makes up for the loss on the oil changes. 

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Wouldn't a shop that "specializes in Mooneys" be able to do an annual significantly faster than a shop that does an occassional Mooney annual?  I know from doing my owner-assisted annuals under the watchful eye of an IA that over the 20 years I've been doing them, I have become at least 30% more efficient.

I know what tools I'll need at each stage; some wrench sizes I even manage to remember from year to year and I don't have to run back and forth to the maintenance manual nearly as often.  It all adds up to better efficiency and quicker annuals.

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I probably wouldn't fly away from my home airport 84R, where SWTA is based, right over the top of Don Maxwell's at KGGG, to get an annual done at Jewell's.  But they are at the very top of my short list for an engine overhaul and upgrade from MB to SB, when it comes time.  I hear nothing but great things about their work.

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Likely the total cost of living in this Missouri town is not the same as Chicago suburbs.  Likely people are just as happy living in a two story home built in the 1930’s with a detached garage.  Likely they don’t have multiple new cars with payments.  Likely they have one rifle, one shotgun and one pistol and ONE wife.

Likely they are happier than a lot of other “big city” dwellers...

Likely they feel just as “Rich”.

There was a reason five of my family retired in North East Arkansas.  It wasn’t because of the golf...

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18 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I probably wouldn't fly away from my home airport 84R, where SWTA is based, right over the top of Don Maxwell's at KGGG, to get an annual done at Jewell's.  But they are at the very top of my short list for an engine overhaul and upgrade from MB to SB, when it comes time.  I hear nothing but great things about their work.

We also would likely have Jewell do our O/H when the time comes.  But there are some MSers who would argue that since their O/H rates are so reasonable they must be cutting corners and don't deliver a quality product.  :lol:

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My opinion is that shops that charge a low flat fee for annuals are betting on what we call in French “achalandage”. They prefer to have more customers than less, making less on each but with volume will manage to make profit. I agree with comments above that customers will return for other things to be worked on. Same idea with selling fuel cheaper.  GA is already expensive enough for the mere mortals. By the way, nobody mentioned that those shops charging less for annuals are the favourite hanging spots of CB club members!

This is happening globally, Walmart is a good example. How many here go buy flashlight batteries at a cornerstore at 20 - 40 % more than large surfaces stores? Volume is king.

Yves

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  • 2 weeks later...

I’ve been happy. About 400 hours on the overhaul and it’s faster than than prior with 1qt in 10 hours at max cruise. In my opinion they delivered everything they promised to me. Take care.
And the paint job on the engine. Wow. Looked like it came from lycoming.
Aaron


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