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'64 M20C crosswind limitations?


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On 2/12/2018 at 1:18 PM, Cam said:

Late response to this topic, but I was just reading an article todo with cross winds since I was out yesterday in some (to me) breezy and gusty conditions 18018G24KT, and wanted to do more research into my rusty crosswind landings.  Now, just to be clear, I'm a sniveling coward, so I only went out because I really needed to get my ADS-B flight test done and I had a 10,000' runway oriented at 170 so the actual cross wind was almost 0. (Now ballooning, because of a gust (I hope) ... that was fun ... but this is about cross winds. ) 

Anyway, the article had an interesting suggestion that I hadn't thought of .... 

"Not long after I got my private rating, I learned one other technique for handling very strong crosswinds. It is perfectly legal but rarely considered. It has prevented accidents, yet airport managers sometimes get distressed about it: If the airport has a long enough taxiway that is oriented into the wind, isn’t near buildings or obstructions and there is no one on it, you land on the taxiway. 

As long as there aren’t any people or things to hit, it’s certainly much safer to land on a taxiway that is into the wind than try to land in a crosswind that is so strong you are concerned about your ability to make a safe landing. The Federal Aviation Regulations contain no prohibition against taxiway landings. So long as the landing does not conflict with any other airplanes and there are no people, vehicles or buildings in the immediate vicinity of the touchdown and rollout area, the operation is not careless or reckless, and is far, far safer than losing control of an airplane while landing on a runway. You may never need this tool in your bag, but stick it there, just in case." (Article at Avweb)

  Maybe food for thought.

I find it hard to believe landing on a taxiway is "legal" when the crosswind is too much for the runway.

Prob falls under careless and reckless...

If it is that windy then you need to divert to another airport.

 

 

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On 2/18/2018 at 9:02 AM, ABCDEF said:

I find it hard to believe landing on a taxiway is "legal" when the crosswind is too much for the runway.

Prob falls under careless and reckless...

If it is that windy then you need to divert to another airport.

 

 

One time in the early nineties, I came into a WWII bomber field that is now a muni.  Three runways, but none east/west.  The wind was crazy high from due west, a very unusual wind in my part of the world.  The airport was completely deserted.  Due to the three runway arrangement, the east/west taxiway is probably 3,000 feet and I was in a 150.  I will not state my ultimate solution, but what would you have done?

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45 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I will not state my ultimate solution, but what would you have done?

What you did!!  ;)  :D  :ph34r:

I got my license, bought my Mooney and was based at an obstructed 3000' field with no taxiway for seven years. Now I consider myself spoiled with open approaches, full length taxiway with 4 exits and 3200' long.

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  • 1 month later...

Well, I have answered my own question today, and I agree with everything in Cam's post:

On 2/12/2018 at 4:59 PM, Cam said:

Yes Bob's article is very good. I've read it before but it contains some interesting things.  For example .

"FAR 23.233 under “Directional Stability and Control”. Here is what that regulation states related to crosswinds: 23.322 Directional stability and control A 90 degree cross-­‐component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe for taxiing, takeoff and landing must be established and must be not less than 0.2 Vso."

So this says to me that for my M20G (Vso of 61 mph) the minimum crosswind component that it should be able to handle would be .2*61=12.2mph (10.6 kts).  Further Bob goes on and says 

"From this testing, I think you will find a common consensus of test pilot opinion that most Mooneys can be operated in 90 degree crosswinds up to 15 knots with an acceptable level of pilot workload. 15-­‐20 knot crosswinds can be handled, but require a much higher level of pilot proficiency and skill in crosswind landing techniques. 20 knots or above, you should consider finding find another airport to land."

"As with all approaches, optimum approach speed in crosswinds with full flaps is 1.3Vso (stall speed in the landing configuration, gear down and flaps full down). That’s the number generally shown in the Owner’s Manual or Pilot’s Operating Handbook. If there is a higher number shown in the POH, use it. If it’s gusty, add 1⁄2 the gust factor to the approach speed, but no more. Too fast and crosswind landings can become more difficult."

 

 

 

 

Coming home from KSHD today, AWOS was telling me i'd be looking at winds 60 degrees from the right at 8G12 or 14... Not ideal, but firmly in the realm of manageable.  On downind, AWOS was calling for more like 90 degres, 10G15, unpleasant, but still safely doable.

Turned final and I didn't know what the wind at my altitude was, but it was definitely more than 10G15.  Set it down without incident (lot of hard work, though) and flipped the AWOS back on... first thing i hear is "wind <perpendicular> at 12G20"... thank you, mother nature.

 

But that does answer my question:  C model can be landed at 20 kts crosswind, if you don't mind working your ass off to make it smooth.  Not a fun experience, though, and definitely not a position I will willingly put myself in in the future.  Going forward, I now know that my personal hard limits on crosswind need to be 15 kts at time of planning: if forecast xwind component meets or exceed 15 kts, plan for a different time.  If I get to my destination and discover worse conditions than predicted, absolute limit is 20 kts crosswind, assuming no other compounding factors exist.

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I have a short rudder 65C. I have posted (earlier this thread) a photo of an old flight supplement giving 17mph as demonstrated 90° crosswind. I think with some skill and techniques ... a 90° 20 knot crosswind is certainly doable ... (I’m pretty sure I’ve done a crosswind component at that level ... ) ... but I don’t think it’ll be much fun!!!!!

More than that, you are going beyond what is demonstrated, and beyond what is recommended by an experienced Mooney Test Pilot .... you are becoming a test pilot yourself. Hope that works out for you. (not you specifically, but any of those “super pilots” out there who think they are God’s gift to aviation - legends in their own minds) 

Personally, I use half flaps, add some speed, and I put in the slip up higher ... about 100’ AGL  (With light to medium winds I usually crab and “kick out” in the flare) .. if I can hold center line I’ll continue ... if I get blown off the centerline ... I’m aborting the approach while I’m still 50’ AGL. I’m may come back around and give it another go ... depends on how I feel about it ...? That seems to be what work for me and my “marginal” skills.  ;-)

You can see earlier on this thread a claim that a 90° Crosswind, 35 gusting 45 is perfectly doable according to an early flight instruction session. While I agree that the techniques of using no (or reduced) flaps and using an increased approach speed are effective to increase crosswind capability, I would never recommend deliberately seeking those conditions to a low time pilot or giving dual instruction in those conditions. But what do I know???

Having flown a few years in the Rockies/ Colorado and Wyoming, both military and in a civilian professional capacity ... I understand that there are days the wind is just screaming, but you still need to go. I also understand there’s a great amount of confidence in knowing the limits of your aircraft and your own proficiency ... BALANCE that with good safe conservative judgement and decision-making ... then you really are a pilot.

What’s the big deal if you go to another airport to land into the wind, and have to find a ride. Ten years from now ... no one will remember. You exceed your limits or the plane’s  limits and destroy your airplane ... or injure yourself or a passenger ... yeah ... ten years from now ... everybody will remember ... especially you. 

Early in my career I saw a photograph of an airplane in a tree with a caption ... it read something like the attached below. When I was pushing the limits as a teenage motocross rider, exceeding the limits carried a severe price ... resulted in lots of bumps and bruises, some raw skin and every once in a while a broken bone .... but exceeding the limits in an aircraft can be way less forgiving ... why go there?

D2CEB730-2CFD-4629-B224-4800AB31A4C7.thumb.png.fa236f740432183696f6715a0036efc5.png

I'm reading a fair amount of hostility in this post that I do not understand. I am not advocating for limit-pushing in general aviation; Quite the opposite: In the absence of documented limitations (I had not seen the supplement you posted, and the flight manual and supplement I have lack that item) I am attempting to establish my own personal limits.

 

It was certainly *not* my intention to land with a 20kt crosswind:

 

1. When I was doing my flight planning, peak winds for the day were forecast at 15 knots, with roughly 10 of that as crosswind component.

 

2. While returning to home plate, AWOS was reporting conditions matching predicted and planned weather

 

3. In the pattern, the wind began reporting a bit less favorable, but not outside the limits of what I have previously flown and knew was within my abilities

 

4. On final I knew from the heavy foot I needed on the pedal that I was riding the limits of what I had previously experienced. I judged my performance in the moment to be on par with the task (holding centerline, on my desired speed and glidepath, nose alignment within limits) and so I continued to land.

 

It was only post landing, when I flipped the radio back to AWOS that I discovered What I had been flying in. While I would not voluntarily fly in those conditions, I am glad to know that both the plane and I are up to the task. Based on the workload I experienced (heavy) and the quality of my landing (smooth touchdown, slight excess float, no swerving on rollout) I am able to use this information to establish real-world limits for both planning and execution phases.

 

Am I saying I'm going to plan to fly with a 20 kt crosswind? Fuck no, that leaves no margin for the weather to get worse, and it requires me to be operating at the top of my game to pull off safely. I'm planning on using a "plan this differently" limit of 15kts, which I already know is comfortably within my limits. An AWOS report from the air of 20kts or greater will be my "find somewhere else to land" cutoff.

 

Why have two different limits? Because you don't always get to fly in the weather you planned for. Are there other runways I could land at with significantly different headings? Yes, but only one within 50 miles, and even it is far enough away that the weather there may well be as bad or worse. The nearest airport which is perpendicular to home base is 50 miles away: by the time I get there, it may not be usable either, and if conditions are home get worse, I'm now stuck in the air. I'd rather land in ab15-20kt wind I know I can manage than divert 50 miles, discover an IFR ceiling, come home again and find that it's now 20-25 kts of crosswind.

 

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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Demonstrated crosswind only has to be 20% of Vs0. I've seen several times in various POH or Owners Manuals for a few different Mooney models a demonstrated crosswind of 11 knots. That would appear to be the minimum required for certification. And not any sort of max recommended, max crosswind a Mooney test pilot was comfortable or able to handle.

I wouldn't for one minute believe that landing my Mooney in a crosswind exceeding 11 knots makes me any more of a "test pilot" than landing at my home field where no Mooney test pilot ever landed either. 

And I'm certainly glad the old guy who taught me to fly took me out in crosswind conditions that kept most other students grounded. I'm not any sort of super pilot, just one that knows how to easily gauge if I'll be able to land in a given crosswind and keep it on the runway. It's not rocket science and not dangerous either. But anything can be difficult if you've never done it before. I'm glad I was taught to evaluate my crosswind capability in the airplane and not with my nose in a POH.

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On 11/12/2017 at 1:26 AM, David Herman said:

Ok whatever ... I don’t care

Unlike the previous poster, I have foreflight track logs proving that I was trained by a Mooney CFI in 22G34 conditions.  60 degree crosswind.  24kt crosswind component.  This in a 63 C model with a short rudder.  

Note the time in the first shot.

edit: oh god.  I just realized I also confirmed we did touch and goes too.  

 

661B5656-F057-44D0-99D2-C643E07F81EF.png

Edited by ragedracer1977
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On 2/18/2018 at 9:02 AM, ABCDEF said:

I find it hard to believe landing on a taxiway is "legal" when the crosswind is too much for the runway.

Prob falls under careless and reckless...

If it is that windy then you need to divert to another airport.

 

 

Just read about that “A-O.K” in AOPA magazine....Their only concern was confirmation that there was close visual to confirm no other traffic.

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Since no one seems to agree on any x-wind limits, perhaps we could use this thread to have people post what the crosswind was when the plane couldn't handle it and ran off the side of the runway, or crashed in the attempt.

That would be informative empiracle data.  :lol:

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