NJMac

From retro to basic

Recommended Posts

If you want to get rid of the shotgun panel ...and you’re a little handy ... and can work with an IA .... contact Dan at LASAR ... he might be able to guide you with hardware and owner produced panels .... I did mine (left and right) two summers ago at a cost of about $550 for parts, a little vacuum hose, paint and new placards ... plus labor for my IA ... who installed the engine monitor at the same time and inspected my work .....
before /after (edited to add photos)
 
 
 
B8BF7523-E68D-488C-A97C-190685BD25ED.thumb.jpeg.e56127e67ea0efc2df4e5d2ef365b345.jpeg
27375F40-0305-4F6B-8268-88975E679569.thumb.jpeg.85c595e7c06b5a352ca172988036f345.jpeg
Since you have experience with both a non-standard and standard six pack, is the upgrade worthwhile in your mind? Or were you comfortable with the shotgun orientation previously? Don't you become comfortable to what's familiar?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

Honestly, 

the job is tedious and time consuming - at least for one with my meager skills. But absolutely worth it.

I was fairly comfortable with the old panel after flying it that way two years. But I fly other aircraft for work and all have the standard “T” configuration.

With the new layout:  I don’t get that nervous tightening in my gut in IMC now.

Also ... I HATED the old artificial horizon, so we (avionics shop) installed a G5 this year while we were upgrading the engine monitor. 

Again ... to me ... it was a big job ... but well worth it.

Here’s the panel as it looks today:

53E6C738-446E-42C5-AC67-473BF0BEE629.jpeg

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave- was the G5 worth the money, in your opinion?  Are you thinking about the HSI, also?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Dave- was the G5 worth the money, in your opinion?  Are you thinking about the HSI, also?

G5’s:  Absolutely ... I LOVE it. Yes. 

The current Heading indicator drives the Britain Accuflite Autopilot (it follows the heading bug) ... so until the STC is expanded to include the Britain autopilot... I’lll leave it the way it is to use that autopilot. When/if the STC is expanded to drive Brittain APs ... I get the second G5. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/13/2017 at 5:08 PM, Andy95W said:

Dave- was the G5 worth the money, in your opinion?  Are you thinking about the HSI, also?

Just a few notes: 

You can install the G5 with its own stand alone GPS antennae.  If you lose electric power and vacuum ... you still have a very nice baby “six-pack” like an integrated stand-by display (IFSD) that is good for an hour or so on it’s own power.  (attitude, heading,/gps track, airspeed, altitude, ...  and course / lateral and vertical guidance if you have two G5’s. The STC calls for a second G5 in HSI MODE prior to displaying course and vertical guidance on the upper or primary G5. )

In addition I have the back up AHRS from the Stratus 2 and from the FS-210 displayed on a ForeFlight  So a lot of redundancy in the event of a failure.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got the quote back from the avionics shop today.  Came back pretty fairly I think for costs at roughly $19k all in.  Appreciate commentary on the specs if you all dont mind.

  • Used GNS-430w
  • Used GI-106A indicator
  • PMA 8000BT audio panel - new
  • Stratus ES transponder with rack - new
  • Stratus 2i unit and interface to Stratus ESG - new
  • ACK A30.9 parallel/serial encoder - new
  • Rami AV-585 Duplexer
  • Rami AV-17 antenna
  • Rami AV-74 DME xponder antenna
  • GPS antenna
  • RAMI AV-64 marker antenna
  • Wire, headphone jacks (no in plane intercom or push to talk a of now), circuit breakers, avionics master switch, etc
  • (2) Forbes Aero FAP 08-1 Surf Mr Mic/Phone Jack
  • 3 port cooling fan
  • (6) SCAT-5 Duct
  • (2) push to talk switch
  • (40 hr) installation labor
  • IFR test 91.411 and 91.413
  • move ComNav1 to ComNav2 in new configuration

The mechanical shop is going to work hand in hand with the above shop on this project.  They will be running most the wires for the intercom and antennas since the plane is opened up right now. They are also installing the JPI EDM900, and docking station (will be getting a 2nd iPad for my lap), laser cutting all the panels and moving the various guages.  We were initially going to be leaving the left side of the panel alone but after today's comments here about the standard 6 pack, and my instructor talking with the mechanic, we will be doing the standard 6 pack on the left too.  We're gong to *try* and fit the JPI in a vertical alignment to the right of the altimeter / 6 pack.  Looking online, image attached, it looks like there will be no real estate below the monitor?  We were thinking one VOR may fit below the EDM but I dont think that will work looking closer as I typed this. Guess both VORs will be to the right of the COM stack, then the docking station.  The mx shop estimated $5k for the EDM installed, plus another $5k for the panel cutting & moving and their work pulling wires for the antennas and plane intercom. 

Should result in a working WAAS GPS, ADSB in and out, a sweet engine monitor, and much improved usefulness with plane intercom and BT audio.  Im totally stoked.  Again, comments always welcomed. 

IMG_2412.jpg.8c110fdc575d3a48b3da9aaa9e355e25.jpg

Edited by NJMac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Mscheuer said:

Just Saying.......

Sorry if I missed this, but who did the panel (sheet metal)? It's exactly what I want (fit and finish).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have some thoughts about the avionics quote. It’s exciting. Now wait for the excitement to be tempered by the peanut galley.   Standby.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice upgrade list. 

Another upgrade thought—a FlightStream 510 or 210 is an inexpensive addition that will make flight planning, plan entry and editing from your iPad far easier than directly into 430.  

Welcome to the 21st century.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with the FlightStream, but the FS 510 is only compatible with the GTN series.  The FS 210 will also give you a back up AHRS.

I just upgraded to the FS510 for my 750 and the interfacing is awesome.  I file within ForeFlight, sometimes I get back and expected route via FF and then can push that to the panel upon verifying with Clearance Delivery in the plane without keying every point into the 750.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments below:

General note - while you're opened up for annual have your A&P run a length or two of RG-400 so you have it pre-wired for the avionics shop.

16 hours ago, NJMac said:
  • Used GNS-430w - you should be able to find these for about 6000-6500 on the used market.  They have a vintage and various conditions that determine the price.  Chase at avionics source won't lead you astray.
  • Used GI-106A indicator.  About $1200-1500.  Why don't you consider the following.  Skip the GI-106A and put in a G5 HSI.  You don't have an autopilot so this would be the cheapest most logical step towards upcoming Trutrak / Trio / Garmin GFC-500 digital autopilots that can presumably be interfaced to the HSI.  The cost delta is about $1400 more and installation labor should be about the same.
  • PMA 8000BT audio panel - new This will be the single largest chunk of labor.  That you're already opened up and can be prewired is of a benefit. 
  • Stratus ES transponder with rack - new  - This is where I'm questioning the stratus decision.  The plus is it has its own GPS source so you're not committed to a particular box / interface via STC.  Minus is you need to drill another hole in your fuselage and spend time running the RG-400 for another WAAS antenna.  Drilling holes in fuselage skins is a very permanent decision.  Minus is that stratus ESG is a bit more $$ than the GTX-335 with WAAS built in - if you do it this way you'll already have your GA-35 antenna already (or can sell it if you have an extra), bootstrap the GNS signal to the GNS-430W box.  Caveat is that you'll be heading down the garmin ecosystem path of no return, however you'll have flexibility to change your source to internal if you want to do a IFD-440 in the future.  You'll also save on not having to install a second antenna.  Another stratus minus is that from all accounts Stratus customer service blows chunks and this is their first and only foray into mass market GA certificated avionics.  Minus is that the 2i will probably have a power jack issue before it's likely lifespan - especially if it's plugged in continuously in the high vibration environment of our cockpits.  I did a GTX-330 ES that I bought used for $1600 (and did the FAA rebate - which you won't be able to to anymore, unfortunately) paired with an old stratus 2S (probably worth about $300).  When the 2S breaks it gets replaced with a stratux for $100.  Just to put a different perspective on things.
  • Stratus 2i unit and interface to Stratus ESG - new
  • ACK A30.9 parallel/serial encoder - new
  • Rami AV-585 Duplexer
  • Rami AV-17 antenna -
  • Rami AV-74 DME xponder antenna - unless required by the stratus ESG STC specifically, you don't really need a blade antenna if you're just doing ADS-B out 1090 transponder (the 2i is non-tso'd so it doesn't require a certain frequency specification).   Read the manuals. 
  • GPS antenna - see above
  • RAMI AV-64 marker antenna  - not really required in today's day and age.  You can decide whether you want to define minimums for ILS on the GPS box. 
  • Wire, headphone jacks (no in plane intercom or push to talk a of now), circuit breakers, avionics master switch, etc
  • (2) Forbes Aero FAP 08-1 Surf Mr Mic/Phone Jack
  • 3 port cooling fan
  • (6) SCAT-5 Duct
  • (2) push to talk switch
  • (40 hr) installation labor
  • IFR test 91.411 and 91.413
  • move ComNav1 to ComNav2 in new configuration - this will be more labor time than anticipated as you will need to drill out the tray and re-rivet.  It's a pain.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.  -Brad

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My comments below:
General note - while you're opened up for annual have your A&P run a length or two of RG-400 so you have it pre-wired for the avionics shop.
Hope this is somewhat helpful.  -Brad
Brad, fantastic feedback. This is my first time treading in these Waters so I appreciate any and all perspectives on this.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, NJMac said:

Brad, fantastic feedback. This is my first time treading in these Waters so I appreciate any and all perspectives on this.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

What is the shop's labor rate? You can calculate out what those 40 hours will cost. The PS Engineering box should around $1800 plus a lot of installation. The numbers you posted seem reasonable. WORDS OF ADVICE: Make sure they are working off of a quote. Can't tell you the number of times a shop tried to pull this was an "estimate" on me when the paperwork clearly stated "quote". What this means you need to have them look over your plane in person before they quote it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What is the shop's labor rate? You can calculate out what those 40 hours will cost. The PS Engineering box should around $1800 plus a lot of installation. The numbers you posted seem reasonable. WORDS OF ADVICE: Make sure they are working off of a quote. Can't tell you the number of times a shop tried to pull this was an "estimate" on me when the paperwork clearly stated "quote". What this means you need to have them look over your plane in person before they quote it.
They did put prices next to everything but I chose not to put them online so it did not become a further point of contention in discussions here. I wanted to focus just on what was recommended, not necessarily the cost.

However I don't think the labor rate for the shop would have a similar outcome so they quoted at $75 per hour.

The owner of the shop did come over last Wednesday and look at the plane along with the mechanic. I will take your advice, thank you, and ask if it's a quotation or estimate

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NJMac: How much for All that but with a new or used GTN650? I bought my GTN “preowned” for around (IIRC) $9.5k but it was never installed and in the original packaging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:
NJMac: How much for All that but with a new or used GTN650? I bought my GTN “preowned” for around (IIRC) $9.5k but it was never installed and in the original packaging.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have him looking at substituting the 430w for a 650 or 440. He quoted $8500 for the 430w used which immediately made me think that's a) high and B ) newer tech upgrade range for a small delta.

Edited by NJMac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, NJMac said:

I have him looking at substituting the 430w for a 650 or 440. He quoted $8500 for the 430w used which immediately made me think that's a) high and B ) newer tech upgrade range for a small delta.

I own a 430w and the capabilities are still amazing. However, max value for the almost 20 year old box IMO would be 6k or less. Go for a new 650 which should only cost 1,500-2k more based on the prices your shop gave you. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Used FS-210.  Might be able to work your avionics installer down on pricing if this is something you're interested in.

If you decide to do the GTN 650 - consider the FS-510.  Does all the database concierge stuff and flight plan transfer.  They were running some sort of sale price for them around Oshkosh - I'm doubtful you'd see that now but may be worth asking. 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=145547

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I worked for a very large Cessna affiliate for 9 years in aircraft sales. Doing upgrades whatever they are, be willing to take a 50% hit when it comes time to sell. Maybe a simple Garmin Aera  or the Wing X Pro 7 on a mini iPad would do the trick you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He is installing a Stratus ES not ESG (no internal gps,).  I just got an ESI ( ES transponder and a wired Stratus 2i receiver).  Easier install than the ESG .  Labor ran about $1700 with other work done.  After rebate under 4amu for out and in.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He is installing a Stratus ES not ESG (no internal gps,).  I just got an ESI ( ES transponder and a wired Stratus 2i receiver).  Easier install than the ESG .  Labor ran about $1700 with other work done.  After rebate under 4amu for out and in.
I actually shared this thread with avionics guy, Josh. He pointed this out to me as well.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just got off the phone with mr avionics guy Josh. Cost delta from a great known history 430w to an IFD440 is $2700. Seems like an easy choice for the 440. Other than money, any reason not to?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just got off the phone with mr avionics guy Josh. Cost delta from a great known history 430w to an IFD440 is $2700. Seems like an easy choice for the 440. Other than money, any reason not to?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk



Nope


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, NJMac said:

Just got off the phone with mr avionics guy Josh. Cost delta from a great known history 430w to an IFD440 is $2700. Seems like an easy choice for the 440. Other than money, any reason not to?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

You also get WiFi with that and don’t need to spend another 1k (closing the delta to $1700) on a fs210 to sync your iPad to the panel. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now