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Does anyone know of a case where an enforcement action was brought related to flight-into-known-icing, when no emergency or other notable event occurred during the flight?  It has been my impression over the years that nobody will bother you unless things go south.

 

 

 

 

 

Something did go south in this situation. I’m not aware of anyone being cited for encountering icing and being under FAA enforcement for encountering it. That said, if there are PIREPs for icing in the area you fly and you request a change in altitude or course to get out of it, sure looks like it leaves you exposed for potential action.

 

http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/1_50/features/Do-You-Know-Ice_706-1.html

 

 

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1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

I think the much more important question to ask is if your insurance would stand behind you (absorb some of the legal fees) if something happened during this flight. ??

Which is why I don't fly when there is a chance of icing -- but frankly, if it's FIKI or not is probably the least of your problems after you come down (inadvertently) in icing. For me, my (non-FIKI) TKS system is nothing else but a backup/redundant system after all flight planning has failed (the only time I got scared flying was 15 years ago when I got surprised by icing in a 182 without any TKS defense). But I have the luxury of flying for fun mostly and always with enough flexibility to come-and-go with a few days margins.

 

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I wanted to know how well FIKI worked before I got into it for real.   So for me the best way to learn how well FIKI worked was to intentionally fly into it under controlled conditions when there were multiple ways out.    The bottoms were solid overcast at 3k with the tops at 7k... so I filled for 6,000 when I did this trip to Chicago.   I've always noticed that the clouds seem wetter southeast of the great lakes like Youngstown and Cleveland then other places.  

landlighton.jpg

landlightduringtn.jpg

wingaftertn.jpg

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57 minutes ago, Little Dipper said:

I wanted to know how well FIKI worked before I got into it for real.   So for me the best way to learn how well FIKI worked was to intentionally fly into it under controlled conditions when there were multiple ways out.    The bottoms were solid overcast at 3k with the tops at 7k... so I filled for 6,000 when I did this trip to Chicago.   I've always noticed that the clouds seem wetter southeast of the great lakes like Youngstown and Cleveland then other places.  

landlighton.jpg

landlightduringtn.jpg

wingaftertn.jpg

Thanks for sharing those!  It’s surprising, but there are relatively few pictures of Ice on a mooney wing, and what to expect it to look like.  How long did it take for that to accumulate?

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If I recall right about an hour for the ice to build on the lights.   I can only speak for myself but the prop slinger on my Ovation keeps ice off the windscreen in most light/light moderate icing conditions and the spray bar is not used often other than to prime the pump.    If I am going to be in or near icing conditions I operate my pumps to pump fluid to the leading edges on the ground prior to launching.   I have already waited too long and have accumulated significant ice in flight while waiting seemingly forever for the system to prime up and weep in flight.   When that happens it will slowly melt the ice from underneath on the leading edges while continuing to build on the outside and the ice will look like a mushroom .   I also cram my neck in flight to observe the leading edges on the elevator.   Every now and then ice will accumulate on the bottom of the cowling.   It makes a crashing noise when it breaks off and startles the shit out of me especially at night.    The only reason I traded in my Arrow and bought an Ovation in 1997 was because of severe icing I encountered which was not forecast.  

 

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On 11/5/2017 at 5:34 PM, Robert C. said:

Think the FAA is pretty clear on the topic. I f you are sitting your written or oral tomorrow...here is the refresher :)

 

§ 91.527 – Operating in icing conditions.

 

I'm curious how many Mooneys are operated as subpart K fractional ownership which would subject them to this rule in subpart F: "Large and Turbine-Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft"

Admittedly, I don't screw with ice at all, but the primary legal driver for our aircraft is the placard and POH limitations "Flight into known icing conditions prohibited" and any FAA opinions on the matter.

 

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22 hours ago, THill182 said:

Does anyone know of a case where an enforcement action was brought related to flight-into-known-icing, when no emergency or other notable event occurred during the flight?  It has been my impression over the years that nobody will bother you unless things go south.

I'm much more concerned about survival than enforcement.

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I have seen some comments that the Mooney wing carries ice well, but that is not my experience.  In night conditions, the first symptom is an immediate loss of ten knots at cruise, and the loss will go higher if more ice accumulates.  I don't know how well the wing carries ice in deep accumulation situations where there is a build-up of 1/4 to 1/2 inch or more because I have never let myself get into that situation.  I don't think the laminar Mooney wing is particularly good with ice, and prefer not to be the test pilot.  

91.527 is not the icing rule for GA.  527 is part of Subpart F, which under 501 applies to large and turbine aircraft.  Also, the standard is not "flight into known ice," which invokes the PIREP rule, i.e. that "known ice" exists only if there is a PIREP reporting it.  The standard is "flight into known icing conditions," which would include situations where icing PIREPS exist showing "known ice," but would also include situations where a reasonable and prudent pilot would read the forecasts to say that icing is likely.  There is not a fixed rule for GA, rather flight into icing is governed by several rules concerning the conditions for flight, and in particular by the aircraft's manual, which will typically prohibit "flight into known icing conditions" if the aircraft is not FIKI.

The rules are explained and a Letter of Interpretation issued in 2009, and everyone who encounters possible icing needs to read it.  See https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2009/january/28/faa-letter-offers-new-known-icing-definition

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15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Nice pics of the ice on the light, LD.

Thanks for sharing them.

Ice, When it accumulates, does it quickly and sticks to everything... including the center of the pointy prop spinner.

Best regards,

-a-

True dat. 

 

F55AFBBD-466A-4715-A104-EC4457DB58A8.thumb.jpeg.eba8eab2a09d472c27b49b69eb2d868f.jpeg

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13 hours ago, Steve W said:

I'm curious how many Mooneys are operated as subpart K fractional ownership which would subject them to this rule in subpart F: "Large and Turbine-Powered Multiengine Airplanes and Fractional Ownership Program Aircraft"

Admittedly, I don't screw with ice at all, but the primary legal driver for our aircraft is the placard and POH limitations "Flight into known icing conditions prohibited" and any FAA opinions on the matter.

 

I stand corrected. Thank you.

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52 minutes ago, mooneyspeed said:

Here’s an example of just how much water content you can be dealing with on the nortwest coast in winter. 89bd9b6900d14c219d2b823dac0902ca.jpeg

And that’s a heated windscreen.


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Is that recent? Icing has been bad around here the last 4-5 days. Not to mention the wind and rain.

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