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I have an 81 m20k with non-fiki tks.

 

I just wanted to hear from other pilots what their limits are for days with ice. Fiki or non fiki.

if you are non fiki will you avoid climbing through an ice layer to take off or will you limit it to 2000ft? Or scrub alltogether.

Looking for go, nogo scenarios I guess.

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My concern with ice on "layer days," i.e. when there is a low and not very thick stratus layer (which is most of the winter around here), is not the climb through.  It is the coming back down.  So what if you have to fly an approach and the initial intercept altitude, which you will be at for a good half of the approach in most cases, is right in that layer?  Sometimes you can get ATC to hold you up at a higher altitude until necessary, but there is only so much they can do.  I worry more about coming back down through the layer once I have gotten up through it.  If the layer starts, say, at 2800 and goes to 5,000, and the intercept altitude is 3,100 (which is a fairly common scenario around Minneapolis), ATC is not likely to let you fly the first half at 5,100 instead of 3,100.

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I'm a J model non-fiki.  I avoid ice like the plague.  We get alot of ice here in the winter.  I'll consider three options:

1.  If the freezing level is above the MEA for my route I'll go.  If not...

2.  If the tops are below the freezing level I'll go.  If not...

3.  If I can stay VFR below the weather I'll go.  If not...

4.  Cancel.

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In my younger days I flew night freight in Barons not equipped for ops in icing, no boots, no heated prop, no alcohol, just the standard heated pitot.  Furthermore we were REQUIRED to maintain a 95% on time delivery record without consideration for weather, mechanical problems or anything else.

Regardless of aircraft or equipment, one must always strive to minimize exposure to actual icing conditions, ice accumulates on the airframe regardless of installed equipment and adversely affects aircraft performance.  Even the most capable aircraft can be brought down by extended exposure to heavy icing.  Therefore having the proper equipment only buys you a bit of time to escape the ice, aircraft without the proper equipment have a very small window to make an escape.

The problem with ice is that no one really knows where it is.  Icing is a very fickle and unpredictable enemy.  It might ice up an airplane that passed along your route at your altitude 30 minutes ahead of you but not leave a trace on your aircraft.  Icing can exist 1000 ft above or below you and not affect your flight at all.

Therefore the concept of KNOWN ICE is one used most effectively in court rooms and crash sites.  Personally, I would pay serious attention to multiple, recent reports of icing along my route and at my altitude by aircraft of similar or greater performance capability.  Light icing reported along my route and altitude by a C172 is a different animal than light icing reported by a B737.  The former would not necessarily cause me tremendous heart burn, the latter very likley would.  Icing reports over an hour old are not as reliable as those reported within the last hour.  Continuous icing reports for an extended period are a problem for sure.

The trick to staying alive in icing is the same as any other sort of aviation risk.  ALWAYS have an escape plan.  

For instance, multiple reports of icing along a route and altitude you intend to traverse is less of a threat when the ceilings are well above the MEA and good visibility prevails beneath, the escape is to decend below the clouds and continue.  If the freezing level is well above the MEA  but the ceilings are below then you may be safe flying at altitudes where ice can be expected, the escape plan is a decent below the freezing level.  

BUT, if the freezing level is lower than the MEA and low visibility exists from the ground up, you may be setting yourself up for a bad day regardless of the existance of icing reports.

 

 

 

Edited by glafaille
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Keep in mind the GFA has a cover your ass statement (read cover the forecaster’s ass) that says NIL-LGT ICGIC ABV FZLVL UNL OTWZ NOTED.

 

If near a Center try call FSS or the nearest IFR and get a PIREP. They could call the departure/arrival controller and ask if any recent traffic has reports of icing in the climb. Faster traffic with thinner wings, likely to have a better collection efficiency then you. Ice should show up on the horizontal stab before it shows up on the wing.

 

If I recall correctly TC considers forecast ice to be known ice and as such that caveat limits you from a legal and enforcement standpoint so the pirep would be your out. Should you encounter ice at that point just leave that altitude.

 

-15C and below you are not likely to see much but there still are occurrences. That being said if you have the HP (hot prop is nice) climbing is sometimes a better option then descending in the winter. That’s where knowing your layers comes into play. Often 2000 Ft is all you need. Keep note of a previous statement regarding a layer at your destination. Especially if the temperatures are in the 0 to -10 range. You’ll probably see ice on the wings, prop and windshield. Not good on a hard IFR day (everyone has personal limits).

 

The wing seems to be pretty good at clearing ice once you leave the condition. I was coming back from Reno to Calgary at night in September. We started picking up some ice at 17000 around Boise, made a climb to FL190 and was good for the rest of the trip.

 

Now all that being said, and not to toot my own horn, but those are my experiences as an ATPL with 11,000+ hours over multiple types and actively employed on 737’s with monthly GA flying, winter included. Your experiences may differ.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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This is a valid concern as in SW Michigan we have forecast icing for 2 months during the winter. Without having FIKI I think it’s breaking the regs to push through those layers. 

The TKS is great but I feel you need to treat the system/situation like you are knowingly entering into icing conditions. System fully primed and operating because it is a poor system for shedding the ice and it takes a long time to reach operational pressure. 

I’m going to be very careful this winter to stay out of the clouds which is going to be tough with trying to continue instrument training. 

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1 hour ago, Northern Mooniac said:

I have an 81 m20k with non-fiki tks.

 

I just wanted to hear from other pilots what their limits are for days with ice. Fiki or non fiki.

if you are non fiki will you avoid climbing through an ice layer to take off or will you limit it to 2000ft? Or scrub alltogether.

Looking for go, nogo scenarios I guess.

Welcome to my current situation....see my other post about Foreflight icing forecasts...

In BC we might as well shut down for 6 months with the perpetual icing AIRMETs and forecasts. I am working on the philosophy of known icing as noted by @glafaille

I have been in a couple of sudden icing experience climbing through or passing through cloud tops and the TKS with defrost dealt with it in a comfortable time frame. I am non-FIKI like you. Those events inspired some confidence in the system, but I would not be super thrilled with staying in that layer for more than 5-10 minutes.

iain

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25 minutes ago, mooneyspeed said:

If I recall correctly TC considers forecast ice to be known ice...

Interesting. I think the FAA looks at this the other way. Known ice is a PIREP or pilot observed.

Since you may know....why the pre takeoff de-ice procedure on a 737 that has heated leading edges? Do they not operate during takeoff climb or is it meant for other parts of the airframe? 

On a commercial flight I was on, the Dash-8 captain has the plane de-iced coming out of Penticton on Friday prior to take off as he picked up some on the descent. He has boots, so similar reason? No boots on climb/take off?

I was on commercial for the same non-FIKI icing reasons mentioned here, otherwise I would have been in there in the Mooney.

 

iain

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All transport airplanes have to abide by the "clean aircraft concept" which means all critical surfaces must be completely clean for takeoff. Deice and anti-ice treatment on the wings, tail, engine inlets, gear doors, flight controls, flaps, etc.  The 737 tail and outboard wing slat are not heated. So it is legal to land or go missed with ice on the airplane, its not legal to being the takeoff that way.  The -900ER adds 15 knots to the approach speed VREF if the airplane has been in icing conditions for that leg, for this reason. 

I remember reading about a 402 pilot who landed with ice on the plane.  The boots had taken most off but there was some residual ice buildup behind the boots and on the tail. On takeoff the plane stalled and crashed. Low, clean, and slow demanded more from the (lightly) contaminated wings than they could provide.

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Having an out and knowing the limitations of your system are key.  I owned a non-FIKI 231 for 12 years and now own a FIKI M20TN.  In between (and still) I fly FIKI Diamond Twins DA42, DA42NG, and on occasion, when I'm really good... a DA62.

 

Having an out is mostly obvious:

  • Can I top the clouds?
  • Is there warm air available into which i can descend?
  • Is there a good VFR alternate within reach?

But are those "outs" available to you?

  • Hot or alky prop working?
  • O2 on board and masks/nose hose available to the pilot?

No go scenarios:  

  • SLD or scary model colors right down to the surface at destination - especially if accompanied by PIREPS.
  • ZR at departure
  • Depending on winds and destination runway length - braking action NIL or other runway contamination reports or NOTAMS

I do have a backpack bug sprayer filled with old, dirty TKS fluid at my hangar.  This is useful for prophylactic surface de-ice before departure.  However, ZR or Freezing Drizzle is a no-go due to potential taxiway/runway contamination as much as airframe/induction problems. 

En-route is less likely to cause me stress provided I have an out.

Equipment:

TKS works. I have taken off after dark in a DA42, in a snowstorm, and flown directly across Lake Michigan, and it was a stress-free exercise.  The system works similarly in the K as it does in the FIKI Mooneys, *but* I believe one of the requirements for FIKI was a 28V electrical system in addition to redundant pumps and heated stall warning.  The thought was that the 14V systems lacked the power to drive the system in all load scenarios.  Dunno if that is true, but it's what I recall being told.  That said, most of the failures I've seen on both DAI and Mooney aircraft have been tubes coming disconnected or filters getting clogged with dirty fluid - neither of which failure mode would be avoided with FIKI. 

Inspect your fluid carefully before dumping it into the tank.  It should be clear, with no floaties or discoloration.  Filter replacement is no joke - $300 filter and a bunch of hours to drain the tank and replace the filter.  There is no drain  or shutoff valve upstream of the filter - bad design.

Lastly - for non FIKI pilots:  Get a copy of the AFM supplement for a FIKI Mooney.  You probably know about the 120 KIAS minimum climb speed, but in addition to learning from a much more verbose system description in the FIKI supplement, do you know what Vne restrictions at altitude exist for the FIKI system?  What airspeed and configuration to use for landing if icing is encountered en-route?  How to properly pre-flight the system?  It's really good stuff.

-dan

 

 

Edited by exM20K
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Interesting. I think the FAA looks at this the other way. Known ice is a PIREP or pilot observed.
Since you may know....why the pre takeoff de-ice procedure on a 737 that has heated leading edges? Do they not operate during takeoff climb or is it meant for other parts of the airframe? 
On a commercial flight I was on, the Dash-8 captain has the plane de-iced coming out of Penticton on Friday prior to take off as he picked up some on the descent. He has boots, so similar reason? No boots on climb/take off?
I was on commercial for the same non-FIKI icing reasons mentioned here, otherwise I would have been in there in the Mooney.
 
iain

While the plane may be perfectly capable of takeoff with contamination on the wing (deice/anti-ice fluid is considered a contaminant hence Vr restrictions on the fluid types for shedding) thanks to an accident you may recall in Dryden (1990’s I think) you cant take off with snow or ice adhering to the critical surfaces of the aircraft (Wings, empennage, top of fuselage for aircraft with rear mounted engines). Many times it’s a waste of $$$ and fluid, a PR spray if you will but that’s the letter of the law. If it’s cold, fuel in the wings is cold and the snow flakes are just some sprinkles on the wing, you probably won’t see a spray.

An above post is correct in that the outboard slat, empennage and winglet are unprotected surfaces so any leading edge ice would have to be removed for a spray. CSFF (cold soaked fuel frost is a different situation altogether and not something the Mooney would have an exemption for.

The 737 anti-ice equipment (engine TAI/ and wing anti-ice are on for taxi at 10C and below during icing conditions, the wings automatically turnoff when setting T/O thrust, engine TAI remains on.

You wouldn’t see the boots being used until after some accumulation had taken place, personally I’d prefer a good 1/4 inch to 1/2 before blowing them to ensure a clean break. NASA testing says blow em when ever you want. My experience in Navajos, King airs, 1900’s says otherwise. I’m not familiar with DASH-8 limitations. We use the wing ice anti-ice on the ground and de-ice in the air
on the 737NG/MAX

Sorry this went away from Mooney discussion but I just wanted to answer the question.

Mike

Feel free to PM


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Good conversation. Thanks for the all input.

Flying commercial I always get a window seat next to the leading edge of the wing. Lots of flap/spoiler/engine/icing action to distract from the horror of the people all around me.

 

 

Apologies for the hijacking Northern...all relevant though.

My understanding of the lack of FIKI on some Ks ( mine in particular ) was the dual alternators , which only became available on the MB4 version used in the 252s. Further, I have a 262 Trophy upgrade ( 1982 231 with firewall forward 252 upgrade ) and CAV won't certify a modified airframe per their STCs. I would imagine the same for a Rocket or Missile; it needs the FIKI first.

I have the dual alternators on mine ( still 14V ), dual pumps, but no heated stall vane. It would be nice to have the heated stall vane, but not at that price, and still not being certified.

 

The fluid flows and TKS distribution are the same in non or FIKI, or so I have read.

 

iain

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7 hours ago, milotron said:

My understanding of the lack of FIKI on some Ks ( mine in particular ) was the dual alternators , which only became available on the MB4 version used in the 252s. Further, I have a 262 Trophy upgrade ( 1982 231 with firewall forward 252 upgrade ) and CAV won't certify a modified airframe per their STCs. I would imagine the same for a Rocket or Missile; it needs the FIKI first.

I have the dual alternators on mine ( still 14V ), dual pumps, but no heated stall vane. It would be nice to have the heated stall vane, but not at that price, and still not being certified.

The fluid flows and TKS distribution are the same in non or FIKI, or so I have read.

 

iain

Dual TKS pumps is part of the certified system as well.

Tom

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10 hours ago, Northern Mooniac said:

I have an 81 m20k with non-fiki tks.

 

I just wanted to hear from other pilots what their limits are for days with ice. Fiki or non fiki.

if you are non fiki will you avoid climbing through an ice layer to take off or will you limit it to 2000ft? Or scrub alltogether.

Looking for go, nogo scenarios I guess.

Think the FAA is pretty clear on the topic. I f you are sitting your written or oral tomorrow...here is the refresher :)

 

§ 91.527 – Operating in icing conditions.

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34314, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-310, 74 FR 62696, Dec. 1, 2009]

(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any propeller, windshield, stabilizing or control surface; to a powerplant installation; or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system or wing, except that takeoffs may be made with frost under the wing in the area of the fuel tanks if authorized by the FAA.

(b) No pilot may fly under IFR into known or forecast light or moderate icing conditions, or under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions, unless—

(1) The aircraft has functioning deicing or anti-icing equipment protecting each rotor blade, propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface, and each airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;

(2) The airplane has ice protection provisions that meet section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23; or

(3) The airplane meets transport category airplane type certification provisions, including the requirements for certification for flight in icing conditions.

(c) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly an airplane into known or forecast severe icing conditions.

(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.

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10 hours ago, glafaille said:

In my younger days I flew night freight in Barons not equipped for ops in icing, no boots, no heated prop, no alcohol, just the standard heated pitot.  Furthermore we were REQUIRED to maintain a 95% on time delivery record without consideration for weather, mechanical problems or anything else.

How did your company maintain 95% without ice equipment?  I don’t doubt you, I worked for a freight operator on the maintenance side, but we had turboprops with boots.  I know even then I often wondered how our pilots were pulling it off.  It feels like my airplane was an ice magnet compared to those old freighters.  Perhaps their sheer ugliness repelled ice....or is there some secret that is only share do with the night freight pilot.  Please understand, I have a lot of respect for those pilots who do this work, I am just looking for the secret to getting 95+% year round.

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Not necessarily (although I personally wouldn't do it):.

From above:

(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.

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It used to say something else before this letter was produced about this topic.

 

http://lichtermanlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/090126icing.pdf

 

 

 

Canadian regs are a little different but effectively the same meaning I think:

 

605.30 No person shall conduct a take-off or continue a flight in an aircraft where icing conditions are reported to exist or are forecast to be encountered along the route of flight unless

(a) the pilot-in-command determines that the aircraft is adequately equipped to operate in icing conditions in accordance with the standards of airworthiness under which the type certificate for that aircraft was issued; or

(b) current weather reports or pilot reports indicate that icing conditions no longer exist.

 

So, does the lack of icing PIREPS constitute compliance with part (b) ?

 

Again, not that I do this as I am a big wuss about icing.

 

iain

 

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As mentioned, coming down may be more of an issue than going up. Going up it has to sublimate to disappear and not melt but coming down?

Worst ice I ever got was on approach to Midway in a 737-200. Hit the clouds outside the OM and broke out at @ 400'  Went from a normal 3000 lbs/side FF to 4500#/ side just to hold Ref +15. Couldn't bring up the flaps, too much ice. We had in places over 3 1/2 inches of clear ice. 

AND that was just on the approach!

Carried lots of ice on Navajos with boots but I won't play with it with a clean wing. 

A teaching moment follows:

Lost a best friend to ice over Lake Michigan years ago in a Bonanza. For those who say "climb" 2000' and you're out of it? Not so quick. My friend was at 9000 picking up ice and went to 11000. Still picking up ice he went to 13,000. Never made it to 13K. Stalled out and pulled the tail off on the way down. Think of your "OUTS". It was warm at 6000 and no clouds down there. Had he thought to go down he'd still be here. 

ALWAYS LEAVE YOURSELF AND OUT!!!

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8 hours ago, milotron said:

It used to say something else before this letter was produced about this topic.

 

http://lichtermanlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/090126icing.pdf

 

 

 

Canadian regs are a little different but effectively the same meaning I think:

 

605.30 No person shall conduct a take-off or continue a flight in an aircraft where icing conditions are reported to exist or are forecast to be encountered along the route of flight unless

(a) the pilot-in-command determines that the aircraft is adequately equipped to operate in icing conditions in accordance with the standards of airworthiness under which the type certificate for that aircraft was issued; or

(b) current weather reports or pilot reports indicate that icing conditions no longer exist.

 

So, does the lack of icing PIREPS constitute compliance with part (b) ?

 

Again, not that I do this as I am a big wuss about icing.

 

iain

 

I'd say no.  To me, if there were no PIREPS I would have to assume there was still icing.  However, if there were PIREPS of 'negative icing' then I'd say you meet the letter of the law.

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1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I'd say no.  To me, if there were no PIREPS I would have to assume there was still icing.  However, if there were PIREPS of 'negative icing' then I'd say you meet the letter of the law.

Does anyone know of a case where an enforcement action was brought related to flight-into-known-icing, when no emergency or other notable event occurred during the flight?  It has been my impression over the years that nobody will bother you unless things go south.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, THill182 said:

Does anyone know of a case where an enforcement action was brought related to flight-into-known-icing, when no emergency or other notable event occurred during the flight?  It has been my impression over the years that nobody will bother you unless things go south.

 

 

 

 

I think the much more important question to ask is if your insurance would stand behind you (absorb some of the legal fees) if something happened during this flight. ??

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