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Nav/Com Advice


Skates97

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1 minute ago, Skates97 said:

If I had to wager a guess I would say those without the second Nav are using Foreflight or some other program on a tablet as backup. 

I don't think I would trust the iPad as a back up, just due to its ability to overheat when you need it the most.

I do have, and use as a backup, a dedicated Garmin portable (Aera 500) that I do trust.  It also displays traffic and weather from my GDL-39 (hardwired) on a display larger than a GNS-430's.  The GDL-39 also provides traffic and weather to an iPad, of course.

Works for me, and it's cost effective, to say the least.

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19 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The second Com isn’t thought about much until you need it. I have a GTN 650 as the primary and had a Narco MK20 D+ as the backup. I lost the 650 on an IFR due to interference caused by a newly installed JPI 900. My Narco decided it was time to take a rest.

Made for an interesting flight. I elected to pull the Narco and installed a Garmin GNC 255B. Great radio with nice features. If you intend on going IFR, you will want a decent #2 that you can rely on.


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I wouldn't fly IMC without a second comm radio.  Nav radio is a different story.  Backup the panel mounted GPS with a battery powered backup and you'r'e arguably in better shape than a second panel mounted GPS.  If the #1 gps/nav radio dies, you backup with a a handheld GPS.  If GPS goes down then you have a nav radio in the panel mounted GPS.  If GPS and the VOR system both go down, it's unlikely that a second nav radio would help.  There are certainly scenarios we could come up with, but for an owner flown aircraft well known to the pilot, those scenarios are very unlikely.

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12 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Totally agree on the EDM-900 or even EDM-930 if budget permits...

I installed an 830 a few years ago primarily because it fit in the panel without having to move other instruments around and I didn't have to recut the panel.  The JPI has been pretty reliable.

If I were looking at panel today I would look very hard a budget of the current/legacy equipment and the upcoming Dynon systems.  The installed cost of the 900/930 is very high- add in the cost of ADSB and you're a fair distance to a single screen Dynon system.

If I needed an engine monitor today I would have to look a little further, but I would try to get field approval for a Dynon stand alone engine instrument based on the D10.  Then you upgrade to skyview without having to change any of the probes.  Not sure it would be possible, but I would at least ask the question.  Alternatively, I would look at a bare minimum JPI700 with fuel flow and skip the rest of the parameters as the JPI thermocouples will work with the Dynon system.  That of course assumes that you would plan on an additional upgrade later.

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13 minutes ago, smccray said:

I wouldn't fly IMC without a second comm radio.  Nav radio is a different story.  Backup the panel mounted GPS with a battery powered backup and you'r'e arguably in better shape than a second panel mounted GPS.  If the #1 gps/nav radio dies, you backup with a a handheld GPS.  If GPS goes down then you have a nav radio in the panel mounted GPS.  If GPS and the VOR system both go down, it's unlikely that a second nav radio would help.  There are certainly scenarios we could come up with, but for an owner flown aircraft well known to the pilot, those scenarios are very unlikely.

+1.  Couldn't have said it better if I'd tried.

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1 hour ago, smccray said:

I wouldn't fly IMC without a second comm radio....

Me too, so for a while in the M20C I had the second comm antenna connected to a type BNC connector on the panel.  A handheld transceiver with an Alkaline AA battery pack stashed in the seat pocket was the #2 comm radio.  That $200 radio with the external antenna was adequate backup--and it was independent of the plane's 14 volt system.  

Like smccray my #2 nav was a portable GPS. 

The 530W in the panel was the "real" nav com system.  I never used the #2 comm except occasionally for clearance delivery before engine start.

 

 

 

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If #1 is a WAAS GPS... w/ vertical guidance....

#2 should have at least ILS capability...

If flying in IMC, you want to get beneath the clouds, before running out of fuel.

Many VOR or non-precision approaches require to be out of the clouds by about 700' agl. Not always doable...

Compare that to an ILS that can get you down to about 200' agl with precision.

If a portable is your best #2, get one with ILS skills or better...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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From a systems standpoint, the integration point for everything is the Audio Panel.   So in my mind you start there.   It is also the most work and the most dollars for install.  There are a bunch of wires.  I think it is interesting to see fancy moving map GPS with an old king panel and tack panel for the rear seats.

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Thank you everyone for your input. I've settled in on a plan of action. Some will agree, some won't. Let me preface with a few things. I have a good plane that meets my mission. It was great this summer to make I think 2 trips to Idaho, 4 to Utah, and a few to AZ, not to mention some local trips in the 150-200nm range. It's clean, corrosion free (as far as what can be seen) and the engine is sound. I will most likely have this plane for at least 15-20 years at which point if I trade up it will stay in the family for one of my sons to fly. (They have both expressed their interest in flying) So I'm not looking at "what will this upgrade get me when I sell" but rather "how is this upgrade going to benefit me."

I think upgrades should be balanced with the value of the plane. While I appreciate those saying go with the 900 or 930, I am reminded of old beater cars I see that have stereo systems in them that are worth 2-3 times the value of the car and every time the base thumps I wonder if a fender is going to fall off... My plane is worth probably around $30k or so and as such I want to put in what will add the functionality that I want without going over the top.

Current Round of Upgrades

I couldn't justify the additional $1,400 for the 900 plus $1,500 in install costs over the 830. The 900 would get the old instruments out of the panel, but the 830 will do everything I want for about $3,000 less than the 900 (including installation costs). So, the 830 will go into the panel where either the CDI is or the #2 radio. I'll talk with the installer, my preference is to drop the CDI down and put the 830 on top which I think will require moving the intercom. I have an SL 40 coming which can go into the stack. This will give me a very capable engine monitor and a good radio (the 12D has some issues) and all of it without too much expense. I got hooked up with a great deal on the 830 and the SL40.

Next Round - Sometime Next Year

This one will be the bigger of the two upgrades to get me set for IFR training. My idea of IFR flying is going up or down through the marine layer here or just light stuff flying through the clouds. Check out Mikes video flying in the Bahama's for an idea of what I think looks like "fun, light IFR". Flying in the west during the summer usually means convection and during the winter usually means icing in IMC. I have no desire to ever fly "hard IFR" and if I ever found myself in that situation then it means something went terribly wrong in either my planning, execution of the plan, or both.  For me, flying is fun and I'm not looking to ever replace the airlines. Flying in hard IMC conditions is not ever going to qualify as fun to me. The other reason to go after the IFR is because I have always tried to be a "lifelong learner" and after putting 130+ hours on my Mooney in the last ten months I am looking for more training.

I'll keep my eyes open for some deals on someones used stuff that they pulled for an upgrade. I have an ancient audio panel so I plan on putting in most likely a PMA8000 to replace it. The Narco 12D will come out and a GNS 430W/480/530W or possibly an IFD440 will go in. Over on the left side there will be a clock going into the panel. Both upgrades  should come to around $15,000 which I think is a reasonable number to take what is a good plane and turn it into a good IFR trainer. (It's already a great cross country machine).

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The single most important upgrade I’ve done so far has been adding an engine monitor.  

The single favorite upgrade I’ve done so far was adding an 8000BTi.  I went from strained coms and most flights flipping to com2 to clear communication with atc.  Having modern  communication equipment (ie not 40 years old) is like going from my dads turntable to a full digital audio environment.  I can hear and  ATC can hear me!  The new audio panel has even given new life to the old kx -170 box.  

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