pattern etiquette question

[kerry]

Friday I was at a busy uncontrolled airport.  I entered the downwind pattern and began my base turn. I then heard an aircraft call straight in approach.  I decided to extend my base past the runway.  I didn't want to take a chance and have the straight in aircraft ram me from behind.  The straight in aircraft then called out on the radio that I just cut off an airliner.  I spotted him at my 5 o'clock 1 mile on approach.  I radioed back "ya right".  

[cbarry]

What is ironic and a little strange is that one of the only times a pilot is in a rush to be on the ground and not be flying is when they think they can race someone to the pattern! 

Edited October 16, 2017 by cbarry

[N9201A]

"I... was a little closer than I'd like."

Wonder how the Cessna pilot on final liked it?

[carusoam]

Another fun part of this...

VFR flights are staying clear of clouds.... endless loops around the patch.

IFR flights are coming in through the clouds breaking out at 700'agl...  

Hopefully the IFR flight is monitoring the CTAF along with approach control handling the last portion of the IFR flight...

The VFR pilot may be clueless to where and what the IFR pilot is about to do...

Don't be afraid to speak clearly, often...

I had 10 years as a VFR pilot before being IR...

I had no idea what was on the other side of that cloud's lower surface.

I also believed a lot in big sky theory...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

So I agree this is the way it should be done, but there is no legal obligation to break off practice approaches in VFR or any other time.  Right-of-way rules are dictated by the FAR's, and they do not address this.  Sure, you could be violated for reckless operation, but not for violating the right-of-way rules, unless you were actually higher in altitude at the time.

That being said, as a person practicing IFR approaches, I can't see that I have a legal prerogative to make straight in approaches and shoulder everyone else out of the way.  Since I'm a VFR pilot, my landing falls under VFR guidelines, and those include entering the pattern unless it is safe to do otherwise.

Even if I'm flying an actual IFR approach, if there is VFR traffic, the airfield is presumably in VMC.  As such, I have no prerogative to do anything different than the other VFR traffic in the area, so the situation is the same.

Right of way goes to lowest altitude. I turn base-to-final at 500 agl, roughly the same spot I pass through on approach. So incoming IFR traffic 2-5 nm out is at much higher altitude (my pattern distance is approx 1/2 mile from the runway). Besides, if it's a Cessna 5 nm out, like Rob, I can turn final, land and clear the runway before he gets very close . . .

[rbridges]

58 minutes ago, N9201A said:

 

Wonder how the Cessna pilot on final liked it?

 

I was well ahead if him. I even told him that I was going to make the base turn and he didn't object  Wasn't a safety issue at all. 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Right of way goes to lowest altitude. I turn base-to-final at 500 agl, roughly the same spot I pass through on approach. So incoming IFR traffic 2-5 nm out is at much higher altitude (my pattern distance is approx 1/2 mile from the runway). Besides, if it's a Cessna 5 nm out, like Rob, I can turn final, land and clear the runway before he gets very close . . .

When you turn base and IFR traffic is 2-5 nm out, you have the right of way, but that's far enough away not to be an issue.  However, when the straight in traffic is close enough to be uncomfortable, that means you are roughly at the same altitude--either one of you could legally have the right of way at that moment.  If anything, the straight-in traffic would legally have the right-of-way if you were at the same altitude, since he is on your right and also arguably on final approach.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I've had the experience of being in the clouds, visibility nada, straight in on an ILS approach & upon being handed from approach to tower being told, "You're number 2 to land behind a touch and go Cessna in the pattern." 

On popping out of the clouds into basic VFR the tower had us each spaced ok.  But it was an unexpected occurrence in an otherwise typical IFR procedure.  

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I've had the experience of being in the clouds, visibility nada, straight in on an ILS approach & upon being handed from approach to tower being told, "You're number 2 to land behind a touch and go Cessna in the pattern." 

On popping out of the clouds into basic VFR the tower had us each spaced ok.  But it was an unexpected occurrence in an otherwise typical IFR procedure.  

Oh, the multitude of joys having a tower brings . . . .

[kpaul]

Ok this is not regulatory but an article from the Air Safety Institute. https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2017/Jun/Non-Tower_Airport_Comms.pdf

Safety Tip:  If there is heavy VFR traffic and you’re on an instrument approach to other than the active runway, break off the approach before a conflict develops and enter normal traffic. Announce your intentions on the CTAF.

Courtesy Tip:  If another aircraft is on a straight-in instrument approach in visual conditions and it will not greatly inconvenience you, consider extending your downwind to follow the aircraft. Be sure to announce your intentions.

Occasionally you might be inbound to a non-towered airport on a heading that will allow a straight-in approach. Though permissible, a straight-in approach should only be used when you are certain there will be no conflict. Straight-ins should yield to other aircraft in the pattern. If another aircraft is ahead of you on base and the spacing will not be sufficient, go around by altering course to the right (on a standard left pattern), enter the upwind leg, and turn crosswind when it’s safe.
 

[Mooneymite]

This thread has morphed (as most threads do  ) from Rob's original scenario/question.  However most of the discussion has involved communication in the pattern....something we should do, but also something we must never count on at an uncontrolled airport.

While it is true that some aircraft are not equipped with radios and some pilots just choose not to communicate, the other big gotcha is a mis-tuned radio.  I've done it myself (122.25 instead of 122.025) and become aware of others doing it.  Hearing no one else in the pattern could mean only that one, or more aircraft are using the wrong frequency.

A local airport changed the unicom frequency years ago, but some pilots still call in on the old frequency!  Lots of reasons it can happen, but it can and does happen.

Bottom line, while radios are nice, the human eyeball is the final authority....ADS-B not withstanding.

[rbridges]

I remember my CFII saying something about VFR planes in the pattern have priority over practice instrument approaches, but I wasn't certain.  It seems part of the problem is that the other guy may not be certain, either.  I remember thinking the guy in the Cessna wasn't going to break his approach; I was the one asking questions about his location over the unicom.

[RLCarter]

16 hours ago, rbridges said:

I ended up sneaking ahead of him, but it was a little closer than I'd like.  Normally I'd yield since I don't want to mess up someone's instrument approach, but I was pretty beat and ready to land.

Legal does not mean Safe, and I believe you know the answer for next time. Closer than you would have liked, beat and ready to land and I assume a tighter pattern than you normally fly. Had this been at a controlled field, what do you think the controller would have done? Another thing I didn't see in the comments is if the 150 was on a IFR flight plan he now has both sets of rules to abide by and stands a better chance of violating an FAR 

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

...one of my pet peeves are guys shooting approaches in VMC who give position reports that only reference the approach that they are on....

I try to keep the audience in mind:  it helps the tower personnel if I announce on initial call I'm at SPLAT intersection inbound.  

But on Unicom with student pilots nervously plying the pattern, sure, speak normal aeronautical English. Slowly. 

 

[RLCarter]

2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

But on Unicom with student pilots nervously plying the pattern, sure, speak normal aeronautical English. Slowly. 

It's not just students, a non-instrument rated pilot might not have a clue as to where you are, even an IR pilot not familiar with the approach would have issues

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, RLCarter said:

Legal does not mean Safe, and I believe you know the answer for next time. Closer than you would have liked, beat and ready to land and I assume a tighter pattern than you normally fly. Had this been at a controlled field, what do you think the controller would have done? Another thing I didn't see in the comments is if the 150 was on a IFR flight plan he now has both sets of rules to abide by and stands a better chance of violating an FAR 

It was one of the airport's trainers.  It was a VFR day with 7k foot ceilings.  I guess I shouldn't have used the phrase "closer than I'd liked".  Having someone doing a straight in while I"m doing the pattern just bothers me since it's something that doesn't happen to me often.  It may have been a little tighter pattern than I would have normally done, but much less tight than a circle to land.  I'd never put safety on the line to prove a point or to rush a situation.   

[Bravoman]

I think it’s best to be conservative and announce multiple times approaching the field with distance and altitude and use this time to get a mental picture of who else might be in or approaching the pattern at the same time. I always ask a couple of times if anybody else is  in or approaching the pattern if the radio is silent. I then always give other pilots the option to go ahead of me if they would like. I don’t care what the law is because gray areas of interpretation and misunderstanding can get folks killed. Of course this mostly applies to approaching under visual conditions but I still try to do as much announcing as possible when coming in IFR because people do scud run.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Bravoman

[N9201A]

If you were safe, you told the Cessna on final what you were doing, and he agreed, sounds like a nonevent. He probably didn't want to inconvenience you by extending your downwind then slowly gaining on him at 80 knots.


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[chrisk]

My personal pattern etiquette pet peeve is the instructor who wants to do a "stop, chat, and then go" when there are multiple aircraft in the pattern.    I've had to go around more than once.  I've had this happen at both non-towered fields and towered fields. 

For pattern etiquette, I do see some folks getting unreasonably upset.    At a local field there is a banner tow operation which uses an old crop duster.   They can follow a student pilot in  Cessna 172 doing a touch an go (with a 747 pattern), drop their banner, and come back around and be on short final before the 172 is even ready to turn base.  Heck, half the time they are already on the taxiway before the 172 turns base.  I was stunned the other day when I heard a Cessna state they were extending their downwind because of this.   The crop duster was flying a tight  pattern, and was clearly going to be off the runway prior to the Cessna turning base to final.   --Its lots of fun to seem them pick the banner up too.

We also get lots of rotor-craft traffic.  Again some folks get upset when a rotor-craft doesn't follow the same pattern as the airplanes.   This usually comes out as a snippy comment  "The traffic pattern is left/right here".  --Different rules for helicopters.  Especially true for flight over congested areas.

[bonal]

Reading through this thread it seems like the problem isnt the regs or who has the ROW but its those damn Cessnas

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, chrisk said:

My personal pattern etiquette pet peeve is the instructor who wants to do a "stop, chat, and then go" when there are multiple aircraft in the pattern.    I've had to go around more than once.  I've had this happen at both non-towered fields and towered fields. 

For pattern etiquette, I do see some folks getting unreasonably upset.    At a local field there is a banner tow operation which uses an old crop duster.   They can follow a student pilot in  Cessna 172 doing a touch an go (with a 747 pattern), drop their banner, and come back around and be on short final before the 172 is even ready to turn base.  Heck, half the time they are already on the taxiway before the 172 turns base.  I was stunned the other day when I heard a Cessna state they were extending their downwind because of this.   The crop duster was flying a tight  pattern, and was clearly going to be off the runway prior to the Cessna turning base to final.   --Its lots of fun to seem them pick the banner up too.

We also get lots of rotor-craft traffic.  Again some folks get upset when a rotor-craft doesn't follow the same pattern as the airplanes.   This usually comes out as a snippy comment  "The traffic pattern is left/right here".  --Different rules for helicopters.  Especially true for flight over congested areas.

A lot of the agricultural guys don't use the radio at all, so you have to really watch out for them at fields where they operate.   It often seems that they're like the banner guys, they're usually really good at getting in and out very efficiently with minimal fuss.  

Like many people, going into untowered fields I'm unfamiliar with I'll just listen to traffic and use the same active runway and generally just do what they're doing.   At a field with crossing runways I did this and didn't realize the only reporting traffic was a helicopter and I kind of rained on his training parade by using the same runway he was using, when the fixed-wing traffic was actually using the other runway.  

[cliffy]

How many have ever read the, err, Chart Supplement on an airport and paid attention to the "Dedicated Calm Wind Runway"? We have one but no one follows it.

We have over 1,000 jet operations a year here. Up to and including G650s and Globals. We have easily, 10 times that in piston flights.  We can have 100 airport operations in a day here.

ALL at an uncontrolled field and 25% straight-ins and 1 runway.

The jets are straight ins 90% of the time.  One tour operator flies only right base approaches from 7 miles out with 6 to 9 airplanes in that line. Cuts down on flight time by 2 mins per flight! 

We have one main runway and both ends get used at the same time for straight ins. Takeoffs on 33 and landings on 15 happen everyday with in minutes of each other. Then factor in the EMS operator with helicopters and KingAirs on medivac flights that pop in front of everyone else.

This issue will always be a problem and everyone needs to keep their eyes open and be as safe as they can. There is no panacea here. Just pay attention out there. 

[jaylw314]

Conversely, I don't think there is any guidance in the AIM about when to make calls while on an IFR approach (practice or otherwise) to an untowered field.  Generally, I think it is fair to make a call about 10 miles out, after passing that FAF (about 5-6 miles usually) and about 2 miles out (safely outside the normal pattern area).  Does anybody make more or fewer radio calls?

Of course, if the field is IFR this shouldn't be necessary, but who knows who might be out there?

[jrwilson]

I was landing the other day, doing a regular pattern and an RV was behind, also in the pattern.  I turned base to final and heard him announce he was turning base too.  I though that was a bit close, but couldn't tell how far out he was.  I landed and rolled out, was taking the second exit and looked backed and noticed that RV was on the ground too,  coming up behind me.  Apparently he decided we'd do a loose formation landing, without letting me know...

I do pretty tight patterns, so it wasn't like I was way out doing a wide pattern.  Kind of annoying with him on the runway too, but no harm, no foul I guess.

[thinwing]

On 10/15/2017 at 1:41 PM, rbridges said:

that's what I ended up doing.  He was 3+ miles out in a 152, and I was abeam the end of the runway.  I was able to turn base and land.  I was actually pulling off the runway when he was on short final.  

I would call him and ask if he was full stop or going on the missed