When do you retract flaps after take-off?

[1964-M20E]

I think the small wheels on our aircraft stop spinning quick enough but I do ti because that was the way I was taught.  Not to mention you do not have bakes on the nose wheel so if they are spinning and you tap the brakes the nose will continue to spool down.  If I do not tap the brakes before retracting the gear I don't worry about it.

 

[carusoam]

Both the C and the R leave small wear marks where tires come up.  Something is making contact, so I tap the brakes...

makes me feel like I’m doing it right.  Could be extra fluff. I don't see anything in the check list... the C had some rubber parts that would stop the tire's rotation.

 

Mlm, you have touched a point of amazement with me regarding the O... no fuel pressure gauge...

That would be the clear sign the FP is on or off...

I use FF in this case.  I look as we trundle down the runway before rotation.  FF, rpm, and MP are on target... ready to fly...

Of the trio, fuel, air and spark. Those three are a pretty good sign things are working as expected, after a solid run-up...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

What a couple of us are saying is that we'd rather get the gear up quickly., even with some runway in from of us. If the engine should then quit we'd be willing to do a belly landing. Roll out is very short, injuries are unlikely. Props can be replaced, engines can be torn down, it's only money and most of it is the insurance company's. Beats landing on tires and plowing into trees, a ditch, a fence, or a ravine.  

Yep, I'm with you Bob. But to me, even more important than running off the end of the runway, is having the most altitude possible when I'm out of useable runway. I know my Mooney climbs much better with the gear tucked up rather than with it hanging out. So the quicker I can get it put away, the quicker and higher I can climb. Altitude is safety and the more I can get quicker, the safer I am.

[bradp]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

4 hours ago, daver328 said:

 

I used to own 2 E models, both were manual gear versions,  with more than 700 hours in the left seat on them I do have a bit of experience.

Clarence is now asymmetric and walks in a clockwise circle.

In all seriousness I try to get to pattern altitude as soon as possible.  I also try to keep the engine's cooling air flowing.  The impossible turn only becomes possible with sufficient altitude.  I want to get there quick, gear up after liftoff, retract flaps at approximately pattern and cruise climb it the rest of the way (Vz).

[HRM]

I belong to the GUASAP club. As soon as I have enough altitude I do the nod. I also use the gear as speed brakes, so getting that drag out of the way works for me.

Frankly, I think that tapping the brakes thing is nonsense.

[Andy95W]

I've heard the whole "useable runway remaining" argument a lot and think it's mostly a poorly thought out idea that has been handed down over the years because it sounds good, even if it isn't. 

As an example: after takeoff, you begin your climb out from a 6,000 foot long runway.  You leave the gear down because there is still usable runway beneath you- except it really isn't useable.   If your engine quits at 50', you'll be doing about 85 knots and that "useable runway" is going to be long gone by the time you descend that 50 feet and slow down enough in ground effect to sit the airplane down without porpoise-ing out of control.

[1967 427]

I don't often comment, I just love to read the comments people make.  But I have to throw this out there.  We are all pilots and should understand the words "gyroscopic effect".  This is the reason we should ALL tap our breaks. If you have a J bar, you will notice it takes less effort to raise the gear, and for all you unlucky guys that have electric gear, this will lighten the load on the motor and extend motor life.  

[carusoam]

427, with input like that, you should comment more often...

Our high school physics lab used a bike wheel to demonstrate the immense nature of the gyroscopic forces.

Picture student sitting in an office chair manipulating the rotating wheel assembly....

Nice reminder.

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

6 hours ago, M20F said:

Some manual gear Mooney drivers get a little crazy on this imho.  I like to get up and get going and verify all the gauges in the climb before I start dragging things up.  

No rush in my opinion and more to be gained by letting hanging longer than taking it up sooner. 

We're just kinda crazy like that

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

10 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

I don't often comment, I just love to read the comments people make.  But I have to throw this out there.  We are all pilots and should understand the words "gyroscopic effect".  This is the reason we should ALL tap our breaks. If you have a J bar, you will notice it takes less effort to raise the gear, and for all you unlucky guys that have electric gear, this will lighten the load on the motor and extend motor life.  

And like your vette it sounds cool....gyroscopic effect.  Say it...Do it.  Tap those brakes. Good stuff!

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I've heard the whole "useable runway remaining" argument a lot and think it's mostly a poorly thought out idea that has been handed down over the years because it sounds good, even if it isn't. 

As an example: after takeoff, you begin your climb out from a 6,000 foot long runway.  You leave the gear down because there is still usable runway beneath you- except it really isn't useable.   If your engine quits at 50', you'll be doing about 85 knots and that "useable runway" is going to be long gone by the time you descend that 50 feet and slow down enough in ground effect to sit the airplane down without porpoise-ing out of control.

I have long since quit listening on the "leave gear down" guys.  +1 on that.

[Guitarmaster]

I think bent prop tips are a small price to pay for a quick, early gear retraction and the attention of all the gawkers.

As part of my pre take off check at the end of the runway I simply put the gear handle up. That way, as soon as I break ground, the gear comes up and I look really cool!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Bartman]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

I think the gear motor on my airplane is getting tired, and if I let the airplane accelerate too much it may pop the circuit breaker on gear retraction.   If I get the gear up early (positive rate, no obstacles), it's easier to keep it at Vy and keep the gear motor reasonably happy and then once the gear is up drop the nose a bit for cooling, cruise-climb, whatever.   It doesn't ever pop the breaker if I do it that way.

My gear comes down faster than it goes up, and I have *cough* demonstrated that I can gear the back down in time to land on my home field runway if I really, really need to.

In the Arrow I used to fly, the gear came up sooooooo slooowwly that I used to leave it down until I was completely out of runway or easy landing possibilities.   But it didn't have a problem with either accelerating easily or bringing the gear up at cruise-climb, so that also helped.

That's not normal and I would have that gear repaired ASAP. 

[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, 1967 427 said:

I don't often comment, I just love to read the comments people make.  But I have to throw this out there.  We are all pilots and should understand the words "gyroscopic effect".  This is the reason we should ALL tap our breaks. If you have a J bar, you will notice it takes less effort to raise the gear, and for all you unlucky guys that have electric gear, this will lighten the load on the motor and extend motor life.  

Well...

• there is no brake on the nose wheel... of course in the Mooney it moves in the plane of rotation so perhaps that matters. 
• when we remount the mains at annual the nut on the spindle is tightened until the tire will make about one revolution when spun by hand.  
• So I wonder if @201eror another movie maker has video of the mains to time how long the wheel continue to spin after the tires leave the ground. I'm betting is is not very long.
• In VFR conditions I usually raise the gear via the Johnson Bar very soon after rotation and I can't say I've noticed any particular resistance as one would expect with the wheel turning at 10,000 rpm.
• Even though I think the brake tap thingy is in (some of?) the old owners manuals, in almost 3000 hours left seat JBar time I could count on one hand the times I've thought to tap the brakes... so color me skeptical. Can we either verify or bury another dead horse? 

[Guitarmaster]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Even though I think the brake tap thingy is in (some of?) the old owners manuals, in almost 3000 hours left seat JBar time I could count on one hand the times I've thought to tap the brakes... so color me skeptical. Can we either verify or bury another dead horse? 

I always step on the brakes prior to retraction.  It's just force of habit, but I believe it's in my 1975 POH as well.  I will have to double check.  In my head, it just makes sense; I really don't want spinning wheels going into the wells.  The nosewheel is taken care of with a scrubber but the mains are not.
In the big planes, the brakes are applied automatically when the retraction sequence is initiated so I kind of mimic that.  I always thought it was so the wheels don't tear things up in the well, but I wonder now if some of the reasoning is gyroscopic effect and longevity of the gear system.   
I have a GoPro mount on the step.  When the cowl is done, I will hook it up and see if we can get an answer to the question of how long they keep spinning. 
To some extent, it comes down to when you retract.  Mine go in the well at positive rate so I know they are still spinning.  If you're wait-longer guy, then it may make no difference.    

Edited October 16, 2017 by Guitarmaster

[Mooneymite]

I'm  not sure this has any bearing on our Mooneys, but virtually every big airplane I've flown is designed to apply brakes to the main gear upon retraction.  Some included snubbers to stop nose-gear tire rotation.

Since at least half of my takeoffs are off of grass, I apply brakes prior to retraction to prevent dirt/sand/debris from being slung into the wheelwells by the spinning tires.

[Bob_Belville]

28 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Since at least half of my takeoffs are off of grass, I apply brakes prior to retraction to prevent dirt/sand/debris from being slung into the wheelwells by the spinning tires.

I was based on a grass strip years ago... slinging water and mud occurs before lift off. I'm not sure that it's a slam dunk that it's better to stop the wheels with mud still on the sidewall to dry out and cake vs. sling it off.

On the one hand, on the other hand...

[201er]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Well...l

• So I wonder if @201eror another movie maker has video of the mains to time how long the wheel continue to spin after the tires leave the ground. I'm betting is is not very long.

2:40 into it

[Mooneymite]

6 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

.... with mud still on the sidewall to dry out and cake vs. sling it off.

On the one hand, on the other hand...

Ha!  Who said anything about mud!  My Mooney is alergic to mud.  Mud day=hangar flying day.  

[steingar]

Initial climb for me is 80 mph, gear gets tucked up as soon as I'm climbing.  Sorry, much more than that and the bar gets too hard for my fragile little body to swing.  Flaps get tucked up real soon thereafter.  Not much terrain hereabouts, and my flap speed is low, easily blown through.  They come up quickly.  I do like to accelerate to 120 mph as quickly as I can, to keep my engine happy.  If the engine quits and I have to land on the remaining runway, too bad. How often does that actually happen anyway?

[Bob_Belville]

23 minutes ago, 201er said:

2:40 into it

Thanks, Mike! It appears to me that the wheels have slowed significantly but are still spinning, it that what you see?

[Mooneymite]

Most of the island airports seem to have a lot of sand on the taxiways/runways.  I prefer to not have that slung into the wheel wells, but it's not a short term hazard and a good rinsing would probably be best anyway.

[201er]

8 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Thanks, Mike! It appears to me that the wheels have slowed significantly but are still spinning, it that what you see?

Looks like the left one stopped but the right one is still going. I don't like tapping the brakes because I inadvertently end up tapping the rudders too and don't like distractions down low.  There's no brake on the nose wheel so everyone has that one spinning regardless.

[Mooneymite]

Just now, 201er said:

... don't like distractions down low. ..

I've been tapping the brakes after takeoff for so long that it would be a distraction for me if I broke my habit pattern.  When I first got my Mooney, I learned the mantra, "Positive rate, brakes and gear".  Works well.  Now.....if I can just remember to turn off the boost pump!  

[Bob - S50]

For me, I retract the gear as soon as I'm sure I won't settle back onto the runway.  If I had to guess, I'd say I'm probably 10-20 feet in the air.  Flaps come up after I've confirmed I've got at least 80 KIAS.  Accelerate in a very shallow climb to 100 KIAS, retract the cowl flaps to the trailing position, climb to 1000' (noise abatement), then accelerate to about 115 KIAS and continue the climb.

Why?  Speed is life.  I'd rather have speed than altitude.  If the engine quits, I can always raise the nose to convert speed to altitude with an upward vector.  If I've got altitude but not speed, I have to lower the nose to maintain speed so I end up with a downward vector.  And if I'm slow with my nose pointing up, I may well be below best glide speed by the time I get the nose down and have to lower the nose even further.

If I'm on a long runway, it only takes about 5 seconds to get the gear down and it will take longer than that to slow to landing speed.