daver328

Upgrade from C to K? Should we??

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, daver328 said:

 I have to make a case to the boss - she LOVES our C!

I bet she could learn to love 200kts over the ground pretty easily.

For the record, personally it would have to be a 252 Encore. I often forget that there are "other" Ks.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Members that donate $10 or more do not see advertisements*

12 minutes ago, daver328 said:

Thanks to all for the great comments, information and photos. I’m learning a lot. Keep it coming. I have to make a case to the boss - she LOVES our C!

 

My wife loved the C too, until I started talking about getting a J.  I sort of mentioned you could get more for the money with a K and she was all over it, said why wouldn't we get the faster, longer range, better equipped plane for the same price.  I had no argument so we got a K.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first Mooney is the F I have now.  I sold it in 2005 and upgraded to a marvelous 1981 231.  Flew from Lake Tahoe to Addison in Texas to see my Dad every 2 months.  FL230 is a wonderful experience in the K.  A real 195 Kts up there.  Here was the rub - the economy tanked in 2008 - it was in all the papers.  The K had proved to cost a little more than half again what the F cost to maintain and operate - turbo, cylinders, etc..  So I sold the K and coopted my sons Grumman.

When the economy came back, I started searching again for an F or J.  My old Mooney appeared (unfortunately, the new owner had passed).  I bought her back.

So here's the thoughts I dealt with:

1.  I didn't need to fly to Dallas anymore.

2.  I didn't want the added expense of the turbo.

3.  The F had a better useful load and the same legs - wife has a 3 hour tush.

4.  Most of my flying is now under 500 miles (except 2 Mexico trips a year).

5.  Could I live with the extra 15-20 minutes it took on a 400 mile leg in the F?

6.  I have the split rear seats - 1 is always out - really flexible.

7.  I live at 5,000 ft and fly 14-15000 always - the F handles it fine.

So, ask yourself these questions-for us, Lolitta (my wife's name for her), is perfect!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to be so late to the party here. I went from a C to a 252 a year ago. 

What I like:

Speed - 205 TAS in the Flight Levels or 165 TAS without O2 and LOP.
Altitude - I've learned to really enjoy the Flight Levels, it's quiet, smooth, fast, cool, and no one else is there. It's nice to file Direct regardless of mountains/weather/airspace. Returning from the MooneySummit I'm at 14,000 for wind. ATC says with the Houston Bravo coming up, it will have to be 17,000 or go around. I can do 17,000. Then it was 18, then FL200. Again, easy to accept and go direct. 
Climb - Gross weight, 800 ft/min to FL250... easy.
Efficency - 14 gal/hr 75% power 100 ROP or 9 gph 65% 40 LOP
Range - Austin/San Francisco is a trip I often take. It was two or three fuel stops in the C depending on weather. I can always do it on one fuel stop in the K.
Room - I've never cared about leg room in the back seat. I'm the owner, I don't sit there. Anyone sitting in my back seat is riding for free and won't complain. That and the dog doesn't mind. But with the 252 it takes 30 seconds to remove one or both of the back seats. The dog appreciates the large flat floor area and it's easy to load. The seats are 13 lbs each and I never fly with both. Sometimes with one but I've never needed all four seats. But the loading flexibility is really nice. 
Avionics - I searched until I found one with a KFC 150 autopilot with Altitude preselect. I kept that and scrapped the rest of the panel for Aspen/G5/Avidyne GPS/Transponder/ADSB etc. It felt good to go to a new panel knowing I'll be flying this plane for a long time. This summer I had the opportunity to fly a fully coupled approach to minimums in the busy NYC airspace. The KFC 150 with Alt is really nice.
Value - spending on upgrades for my C seemed like throwing good money after bad. I knew I'd want to upgrade some day and would never get it back. The 252 is a long term solution and I'm more comfortable spending to upgrade and make it mine.
Upgradeability - I wanted an Encore as its really the best of the K's. But they are difficult to find and very expensive. A 231 can not be upgraded, but a 252 can be easily upgraded to an Encore. Mine will get the upgrade in the next few months. 
Satisfaction - I loved my C and it was a good one, N6XM. But I always wished it was an E. Flying a 252 I'm not lusting after any other Mooney's. Would I like to have an Ultra, sure, but I'd also like to have a CitationX but it's just never going to happen. The 252 is the top of the line for my tax bracket. I can afford it and can afford to fly it as many hours a year as I want.

What I don't like:

Useful Load - Mine was pretty bloated with a panel that looked like it had been upgraded three times but nothing was ever removed. My UL was only 795. I'm up to 850 now and still climbing. The Encore will give me another 230. And there are a few other options I'm looking at that will increase it further.
Fuel burn - this is both a plus and minus. In the C, 20 gal was good for a burger run. In the K that is the climb out. But once at altitude in the K, I'm actually going A to B cheaper than in the C. Most of my flying is cross country and so the K is as economical to fly as the C, but does it quicker.
Maintenance - The C was just so simple and cheap. The K has been good, but is certainly more expensive and the engine reserve fund is no joke.

All in all I'm very happy with the 252. I'm very glad I didn't get a 231. I know they are a lot cheaper and can be just as good? But in the same way I wished my C was an E, I didn't want to be wishing my 231 was a 252. I also am looking forward to adding 230 lbs of useful load with the Encore upgrade. I actually know a guy who flies a 252 at Encore weight without any issues. I'd never do that, but good to know I could :ph34r:.

If you can afford a K, do it. But I wouldn't stretch for it. I thought long and hard about a Bravo, but it would have been a stretch. It was nice to own the C knowing that there wasn't anything it could do to hurt me financially. The K is still in the same category. The Bravo wouldn't have been.

I get to CO several times a year or if you're ever in Texas, and if you feel comfortable riding with a Bernie Socialist, you're welcome to go up and try on my 252.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Best wishes and good luck, Dave. I've always thought the K is the sweet spot of the Mooney line, and the Encore is the sweet spot of the Ks. Nothing wrong with a Missile,  either, and you get to pass on turbo maintenance and a god-awful engine overhaul one day.

Whatever you do, keep having fun and don't stress out over this!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2017 at 1:53 PM, Bryan said:

I recently made the move from an F to a K (231) because of a couple of things.  I, too, wanted to be able to climb higher, go faster, and get above weather.  But, I wanted to update the avionics and to do that in my F was cost prohibitive rather than just buying a K and adding what it did not have.  I had an F without a IFR certified GPS (handheld only) with old Nav/Coms, old transponder, and without a autopilot.

I found, for what I was able to get out of the F (good paint, good airframe, good engine), that I could add the stuff I wanted into the K and also reap the benefits of a far traveler for a good "value" stepping stone.

My M20K 231 came equipped with the upgraded LB mid-time engine that averages 200+ hrs/year engine. Dual 430s, a KFC 200 autopilot (completely re-serviced), Insight G3 engine monitor, Merlyn Auto Wastegate, Intercooler, Long Range fuel (103 gal) and then all the standard stuff a 1983 K came with with a few upgrades: speed brakes, standby vac, nice paint/interior, and factory O2.  I chose to upgrade to a GTN 750, GTX 345, FlightStream 510 and am waiting to decide on the new G5 HSI + GAD29B when it comes out.

For me, it satisifes my mission.  PM me with any questions that I might be able to further answer.

Bryan, 

Thanks for your post.

I see you live in Conway. I was an instructor and then a charter pilot for Central Flying Service in Little Rock years ago. Flew charters with Winn Rockefeller III and and others with Mike Huckaby a few times. I also flew in the Guard at North Little Rock. Seems like two or three lifetimes ago. Used to love to go to Petit Jean and Gaston’s too! 

After that, I went off the deep end and decided to be an airline pilot ... what was I thinking? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've owned all three body styles...

The "C" was great...

The "K" was greater...

But the "R" is like being on vacation every time you fly it...  Especially that huge luggage area...

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can afford it now and into retirement, I say get the K.  It will give you more versatility, a little more speed and more space in the back.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, daver328 said:

Bryan, 

Thanks for your post.

I see you live in Conway. I was an instructor and then a chart pilot for Central Flying Service in Little Rock years ago. Flew charters with Winn Rockefeller III and and others with Mike Huckaby a few times. I also flew in the Guard at North Little Rock. Seems like two or three lifetimes ago. Used to love to go to Petit Jean and Gaston’s too! 

After that, I went off the deep end and decided to be an airline pilot ... what was I thinking? 

 

Yes, now in Conway. Cool. A close friend of mine that works for Delta now got me into the Mooney. My dad was actually raised on Petit Jean and grew up with Winn. My grandfather actually built (clearing and dirt work) for the airport up there. We have been close with the Rockerfellers over the years.

I love flying up to KMPJ and made my first trip to Gaston's recently. I bought this K model to get my insturment and am about to have enough hours to take my commercial.

If you are ever around central AR, ping me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave, I upgraded from a '62C to an '86 K (252).  I won't comment on price, although I probably should given I will probably put mine for sale within the next couple months as I will likely be upgrading further (Malibu).

I mainly fly East Coast and my most heavily traveled trip is between Atlanta and Southwest FL.  In order of priority the K gave me the following things the C could not (btw, loved my C - great first airplane)

1. No more Johnson Bar (hate retracting the Johnson Bar gear on an actual missed appch)

2. Speed

3. With Altitude comes options.  I often think as I'm cruising to FL at 15K' or 17K' that I'm happy not to have to wind and weave my way around build ups between 4k' and 10K'.  It's also always out of the haze layer, even in summer and always cooler.  I've encountered more unexpected icing in summer than winter.   Downside - a couple of the girls I'm dating are not fans of the nose hose.  Can't blame them. 

4. Loading flexibility with the easily removable/replaceable back seats. 

5. Redundancy - backup vacuum system and 2nd alternator

6. Speed brakes.  For example, coming over the top ATL from the south landing runway 3L/R at PDK you need all the drag you can get.

7. Way better interior and exterior lighting

8. Higher gear and flap speed

9. Smoother engine

My all in costs (assumes no financing or upgrade costs; includes engine reserve, op costs, other maintenance reserves, hangar, ins, etc.) flying 150 hours a year is around $250/hr.  I change my own oil and do light maintenance with A&P oversight.  Happy to provide my cost model for the plane on request.  I've owned my plane for almost 10 years.

Hope this helps.

William

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Rocket.  

DITTO!

Here we are, my last trip to Spruce Creek with the Rocket, north of Knoxville TN and only 1 1/2 hours to Daytona Beach (OK, we had a little tailwind).  Non-stop. With my F model it was always one or two fuel stops.

Tom

IMG_1172.JPG

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dave,

Keep us updated on this. I'm following closely. I stumbled across a K that a shop is redoing from ground up and am thinking a lot like you are. Trying to weigh the pros and cons. You have far more experience than me, but I enjoy reading the replies and am learning lots. For me it's a matter of gaining some extra room, not sure the turbo is needed in my neck of the woods, but since I don't see a long body in my future real soon this would be a nice upgrade. Keep us posted on your thoughts.

 

-Tom 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David,

  • I don't think the K will be that helpful relative to the Florida cumulus. Your C should be comfortable at 9-10,000 and a few thousand more altitude won't mean you're on top of everything. Plus you'll now have to add an O2 tank to your baggage. ISTM that the turbo Mooneys shine out west. 
  • You sure have done a lot to your C, in all probability, the next guy is going to appreciate those improvements... but at ~ 35 cents on the dollar.
  • Even the newest Ks will need a new panel and if the PO has not done it you'll go through what you've gone through already with your C. Hassle and downtime.

But... if you have the fever, and if it doesn't go away... you have our permission to decide with your heart (instead of your head). :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

You sure have done a lot to your C, in all probability, the next guy is going to appreciate those improvements... but at ~ 35 cents on the dollar.

Truth!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2017 at 3:21 PM, daver328 said:

and we did way too much to our C, to just sell it now

Dave, the trick will be to find someone who did way too much to his Encore just to sell it now. Then the "beating" is just "kicked" down the road. Regardless, your C is only worth what someone would pay for it, just as your new to you K will only be worth what you would be willing to pay for it (and be able to justify to Tamara). Be honest with yourself when you price your C and it will sell.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11.10.2017 at 7:27 PM, daver328 said:

We bought a 65C four years ago for $40,500 and have put at least that much into it since. I’m worried that:

  • I’ll really lose my shirt when we sell it ... I know the market won’t bear. $80,000 C
  • I just got the plane how I want it. Maybe we should enjoy it a while? Only things left are SabreMechs Cowl mod and 201 windshield conversion. 
  • I’m not sure I want to go through all that again, (emotionally and financially) with a new plane - getting it where I want it?
  • The C is very budget friendly, the K is an unknown to me?

 

David,

I own a 1965 C model I bought for very few money at the time (run out engine but otherwise ok) and I am in a similar situation re resell value and all that, even though I am not considering upgrading at the moment.

However, I can tell you a few things along the arguments you just presented...

My airplane has been upgraded to a high standard in terms of Aspen PFD, S-Tec 55x AP and some other stuff, the engine got overhauled and the prop done. The aircraft has a Powerflow exhaust (mounted by my predecessors) and once I had the Aspen, it left me speechless...

Salzburg%20March%202015%20017.JPG

Jep, that is a 1965 C model with a properly done prop and 200 hr engine plus powerflow exhaust. 150 kt TAS @ 6500 ft.

Oh yes, that is how the cockpit looks like now:

 

Newpanel2.jpg

Also, I have been at altitudes with this airplane which almost would be flight levels in the US. The highest I've ever been was at 17'000 ft but as ISA + 20°C which translates into a Density altitude of 22'000 ft. At the time I did not have a TAS display but I reckon it will run some 145 kts still.

I have no idea how fast a C will go with 201 cowl and windshield but it might pick up some 5 kts for sure and then I'd definitly add the powerflow exhaust, you might end up topping me easily.

My wife is the opposite of a light packer... she will literally carry anything but the kitchen sink. But my C ended up legally carrying us two plus 200 lb+ baggage at 15`000 ft over the alps. When I look at the payload of some of the later Mooneys, they can't do it.

Mods: I have actually seen a C which had a Rajay Turbo installed. Not sure if that is still possible but with it, I imagine that at altitude it will run quite fast too.

And finally: Right now I am in a situation where I can hardly fly at all due to the fact that I have become a father a year ago and need a lot of time to care for my family. A more expensive plane would have had to go by now but I can keep the C up and running because it does not cost too much to do it.

 

As much as also I would like something faster and better, if I were to upgrade it would probably go into a different direction, namely a Twin Commanche with Rajay Turbos. But that is a pipe dream which will never happen as this here airplane is really the best I can ever afford.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Urs_Wildermuth said:

 

David,

I own a 1965 C model I bought for very few money at the time (run out engine but otherwise ok) and I am in a similar situation re resell value and all that, even though I am not considering upgrading at the moment.

However, I can tell you a few things along the arguments you just presented...

My airplane has been upgraded to a high standard in terms of Aspen PFD, S-Tec 55x AP and some other stuff, the engine got overhauled and the prop done. The aircraft has a Powerflow exhaust (mounted by my predecessors) and once I had the Aspen, it left me speechless...

Salzburg%20March%202015%20017.JPG

Jep, that is a 1965 C model with a properly done prop and 200 hr engine plus powerflow exhaust. 150 kt TAS @ 6500 ft.

Oh yes, that is how the cockpit looks like now:

 

Newpanel2.jpg

Also, I have been at altitudes with this airplane which almost would be flight levels in the US. The highest I've ever been was at 17'000 ft but as ISA + 20°C which translates into a Density altitude of 22'000 ft. At the time I did not have a TAS display but I reckon it will run some 145 kts still.

I have no idea how fast a C will go with 201 cowl and windshield but it might pick up some 5 kts for sure and then I'd definitly add the powerflow exhaust, you might end up topping me easily.

My wife is the opposite of a light packer... she will literally carry anything but the kitchen sink. But my C ended up legally carrying us two plus 200 lb+ baggage at 15`000 ft over the alps. When I look at the payload of some of the later Mooneys, they can't do it.

Mods: I have actually seen a C which had a Rajay Turbo installed. Not sure if that is still possible but with it, I imagine that at altitude it will run quite fast too.

And finally: Right now I am in a situation where I can hardly fly at all due to the fact that I have become a father a year ago and need a lot of time to care for my family. A more expensive plane would have had to go by now but I can keep the C up and running because it does not cost too much to do it.

 

As much as also I would like something faster and better, if I were to upgrade it would probably go into a different direction, namely a Twin Commanche with Rajay Turbos. But that is a pipe dream which will never happen as this here airplane is really the best I can ever afford.

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts, nice plane. Congrats on being a new father.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dave, the trick will be to find someone who did way too much to his Encore just to sell it now. Then the "beating" is just "kicked" down the road. Regardless, your C is only worth what someone would pay for it, just as your new to you K will only be worth what you would be willing to pay for it (and be able to justify to Tamara). Be honest with yourself when you price your C and it will sell.
That's what we just did with our house. Wanted to move to the airport community. Lost $47k on the sold house. Previous owner of current house lost about 150k so I figure it washed out somehow.
If the itch for the K is that bad, there will be no satisfying it and you will just have to bite the bullet.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2017 at 2:54 PM, KSMooniac said:

Mid body fuselages got additional ~5" in rear seat leg room and ~5" in baggage room over the shorter versions. If you get an '82+ K you'll get the removable/folding rear seats that will greatly enhance your cargo carrying ability.

Several FL pilots here will extol the value of a turbo to get above the heat, bumps, and clouds easily. I don't think any one of them regrets the choice!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

Everything written above.  I did a lot of Florida flying in my M20K.  In Florida, your options are typically excellent above 11,000' MSL in the summer.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simple answer...get the most airplane you 1) can afford; and 2) feel comfortable flying.  Ain't no coming back for a second chance at life...

Btw, an Ovation seems to be a pretty good fit for your mission too.  Faster than a K below 10k feet...and will go up to 14,000 no problem doing 175 TAS.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Daver, what you really need is an ultimate Mooney....A TBM.  Anything less is going to be a compromise.  :ph34r:

If you buy one, I'll buy one....maybe.  :lol:

TBM.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Daver, what you really need is an ultimate Mooney....A TBM.  Anything less is going to be a compromise.  
If you buy one, I'll buy one....maybe.  
TBM.jpg.7f1a5365deca76fa55d2f4a769887355.jpg
I could MAYBE afford one tire....

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now