Steel in filter

[AlexLev]

I purchased my first airplane in December after a thorough prebuy at an MSC; a beautiful looking Mooney which I dearly love. 

I got it with about 900 hrs SMOH, which was done in late 2003 by Ly-Con. I'm a 28 year old owner and feel a little overwhelmed with the prospect of overhaul in the first year of ownership.

Since December I've put about 200 hours on the engine(had to do that fun lubrication AD twice already). I've put aside 7K toward an overhaul, but nowhere near what is required.

3 oil changes ago, noticed some flakes in filter. Continued to monitor.
2 oil changes ago, the filter looked better (!). Took an oil sample and it actually came back normal. I breathed a sigh of relief and thought this was an anomaly. 
1 oil change ago, filter looked worse. Didn't do an oil sample but sent the remains of a filter to avlab and they identified steel, gave me some potential AMS #'s which Lycoming said could be any gear, cam lobe, camshaft, rockers, pushrod ball ends, anything that's hardened and suggested pulling a cylinder to take a look.

and today, after 20 hours...it looked a bit worse again. Definite metal flakes that are ferrous..I don't think it's quite at half a teaspoon yet. We pulled the oil screen (not this past oil change), but 2 oil changes ago and did not find any metal in there, thankfully. The metal started appearing when I switched to using Philps XC 20w50 oil. I just thought I'd be using that year round. Previously, the plane was running on Aeroshell 100W during summer and 15w50 in winter. Probably not related, but just interesting to note.

I'm trying to figure out my options -- I live near Penn Yan, but they are expensive. The plane isn't grounded yet, but I'll be keeping a close eye on the filter. Compression check was fine. Boroscoped from a spark plug. Saw some oil inside, but oil consumption isn't too bad...about 1.5qts in the first 10 hours. Saw a little bit of rust inside too. Plane runs fine. The mechanic at the facility suggested I cautiously keep flying it for now and monitor if the plane starts producing less power, etc. Lycoming suggested pulling a Cylinder.

I do have some good skills in making web sites and was thinking of reaching out to engine shops, etc and seeing if I can do a trade of making their site a bit more professional or mobile responsive in exchange for credit toward an overhaul, but that's a crapshoot. 

I was also thinking of setting up a GoFundMe and just sending it to the dozens of people I've taken up to sightsee in the past years or just offering to make web sites for people's airplanes if they can throw in a small donation; who knows maybe I'll get lucky and be able to raise enough $ for overhaul using the skills and the karma I've generated in the past years from friends. I mean, anything really..I'll go door to door selling candies if I have to get her up and running and healthy.

What do you all think?

1) Keep running and hope it doesn't fall out of the sky while monitoring closely? If it got better once, maybe it will get better again??? If the filter gets to that point where the amount of metal is too large...obviously have to ground.
2) Use the 7K saved up for an IRAN at Penn Yan?
3) Use the 7K for a down payment and take out another loan for a major overhaul? I don't have much to my name except the airplane and a honda civic and don't like the idea of getting into more debt at this point in my life necessarily...
4) Challenge to see if I can generate an extra 20K in income somehow using a mix of web skills, etc..maybe set up a GoFundMe and hope friends that I've given airplane rides to in the past kick in $20 or 50 and maybe it will add up? 
5) Sell the plane, take a huge loss and try to get back into airplane ownership at another point in life.
6) Learn how to overhaul an engine myself. (hahaaha), this one is tough because it will take me a while and I don't think this is realistic.

Any ideas are welcome.

Edited September 22, 2017 by AlexLev

[KSMooniac]

You're in a pickle. I hate the gofundme idea that seems so prevalent now, especially with folks in your age group. Hard to get sympathy from people to get your airplane fixed.

 

Having said that, you need to earn money and you seem willing to hustle with a marketable skill. I'm not in that industry, but it is surely freelance friendly, so figure out how to find side jobs and make some money.

 

If you're reasonably mechanical and have a friendly licensed mechanic to supervise, you can do a lot of the work yourself and save many thousands. You can also spec out a field overhaul with a local mechanic, and again do a lot of the labor yourself. These engines are very simple. You can remove it, disassemble it, and send parts out for inspection/overhaul as required yourself. I'd have a plan with a mechanic before doing this, though! Often a field overhaul will turn out better than a factory exchange since you can get things balanced, flow matched, etc versus just slapping parts together. Maybe there is a local shop that will trade labor with you for web stuff, but that is a long shot IMO.

 

I hope that helps. This is a good opportunity for sweat equity if you're inclined, and you'll learn a lot about your engine and plane. My bet is your cam is failing and you might be able to get away with replacing it and the lifters and bearings.

 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[AlexLev]

Thank you Scott. I'll do what I can. I don't really consider myself very mechanical, but I do have friends who are and I can turn a screw.

And yeah, GoFundMe's do get annoying if they are so prevalent for every little thing. And you're right, kind of humorous...help me fix my airplane, friends! That said, I wouldn't really promote it aside from friends who I've happily given many rides in and have never asked for anything in return. In those scenarios, I may be inclined to help and throw in.

As far as a web skills, I'll do my best to hustle and see what I can do. I love Mooney's and aviation too much to throw in the towel.

[ArtVandelay]

Can you quantify the amount? I thought the maximum was a 1/4 tsp, which is still alot. Next time you drain the oil put it thru a screen and see if there are big chunks. Personally I would not panic yet. If your cam is wearing an IA can tell by looking at the valves (worn cam, valves won't fully open),

[Godfather]

Asking friends that are mechanically inclined to help rebuild your engine is a poor idea imo. Any reasonable IA would be running from a proposition like that. 

[Andy95W]

With your finances and 1100 SMOH, I'd look at the IRAN.  Stipulate you want to keep your cylinders, but probably go for new rings, hone, and valve seats.  You're probably looking at a new cam and lifters after which your engine will likely go to 2500 hours easy.

[Rwsavory]

Here's what I would do if I were your age:  

1.  Contact a good, reasonably priced engine shop.  Not Penn Yan or any other "name brand."  Think more like Jewell in Kennett, MO, (http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm) and arrange for them to look at your engine with a view toward IRAN.

2.  You might have to travel a good distance to the shop, so plan a trip/vacation around it to avoid traveling back and forth.

3.  After you get the plane in good repair, hopefully without blowing through your entire 7K, find a partner to share expenses going forward.

Good luck.

 

 

[Guest]

As others have said, with an engine at around half time a repair to the engine would be fine.  New cam and lifters, new bearings hone the cylinders and re ring it.

It's not a horrible job, search Jake Clemens of Daytona Florida, he posted some time ago of a very similar job to this, he had it done in no time.

Bear in mind that the longer you run it, the greater the damage to other internal components.

Clarence

 

[AlexLev]

2 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

Here's what I would do if I were your age:  

1.  Contact a good, reasonably priced engine shop.  Not Penn Yan or any other "name brand."  Think more like Jewell in Kennett, MO, (http://www.jewellaviation.com/default.htm) and arrange for them to look at your engine with a view toward IRAN.

2.  You might have to travel a good distance to the shop, so plan a trip/vacation around it to avoid traveling back and forth.

3.  After you get the plane in good repair, hopefully without blowing through your entire 7K, find a partner to share expenses going forward.

Good luck.

 

 

Thanks for turning me onto Jewell Aviation. I wasn't aware of them. Delving more into them to see if they would be viable to use for an overhaul; prices like that make owning an airplane much more accessible.

[AlexLev]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Can you quantify the amount? I thought the maximum was a 1/4 tsp, which is still alot. Next time you drain the oil put it thru a screen and see if there are big chunks. Personally I would not panic yet. If your cam is wearing an IA can tell by looking at the valves (worn cam, valves won't fully open),

I attached the report of the last filter I had analyzed. Feel free to take a look. However, they didn't have a full sample as it was already cut open and examined and probably contaminated. It's a concerning amount, but still flakes and not huge pieces. The oil screen was clean when we pulled it a few weeks ago. I've been flying over some unforgiving terrain lately; with a trip to WV (where I had to do 3 go arounds to get into an airfield 24 ft wide) most recently; so I'm definitely a bit more worried and concerned now.

I also am planning to send out the remaining part of the oil filter and oil as well from the recent change; just waiting for the package to arrive in the mail before I ship it out.

[KSMooniac]

They're respected here...do a search. As Clarence mentioned, don't necessarily conclude you must overhaul completely when a repair might do just fine...especially if you're willing to remove the engine yourself and help put it back on. You could get out of the pickle for under $10k easily enough if you just fix what is needed.

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[AlexLev]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

They're respected here...do a search. As Clarence mentioned, don't necessarily conclude you must overhaul completely when a repair might do just fine...especially if you're willing to remove the engine yourself and help put it back on. You could get out of the pickle for under $10k easily enough if you just fix what is needed.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

Thanks, Scott. I did do a search and reached out to a member who made a few posts about using them for an overhaul. As far IRAN, it's definitely an option to consider...but If I'm averaging 200+hrs/year...will I just be looking at a full overhaul in 3-4 years at that point if I just put a bandaid on?

[Rwsavory]

25 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

Thanks, Scott. I did do a search and reached out to a member who made a few posts about using them for an overhaul. As far IRAN, it's definitely an option to consider...but If I'm averaging 200+hrs/year...will I just be looking at a full overhaul in 3-4 years at that point if I just put a bandaid on?

Check out Savvyaviation.com for an article about overhauling and other issues. Mike Busch has a lot of good information on how to safely keep your maintenance costs under control.

Here's his webinar on the subject:  

 

[Robert C.]

Only other bit of advice I can give is to always send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for a full oil analysis. Think it is $25 and you get back a comprehensive trend report (if they have history on your engine) and a one paragraph analysis of what they find in the oil.

Good luck!

Robert

[AlexLev]

8 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

Only other bit of advice I can give is to always send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for a full oil analysis. Think it is $25 and you get back a comprehensive trend report (if they have history on your engine) and a one paragraph analysis of what they find in the oil.

Good luck!

Robert

Well, the strange thing was the oil analysis from Blackstone from one oil change ago was fine. I sent the next few samples to avlab.com since they analyze the filter too. Here's the AOK engine analysis from Blackstone, see below -- curious what the latest report will show though..

Edited September 23, 2017 by AlexLev

[Godfather]

1 hour ago, AlexLev said:

Thanks, Scott. I did do a search and reached out to a member who made a few posts about using them for an overhaul. As far IRAN, it's definitely an option to consider...but If I'm averaging 200+hrs/year...will I just be looking at a full overhaul in 3-4 years at that point if I just put a bandaid on?

I think the Iran is a great idea from a good shop. If you’re putting on that many hours I’d keep going past tbo.  Shipping an engine is very cheap and you could help your IA with the R&R. 

[KSMooniac]

Thanks, Scott. I did do a search and reached out to a member who made a few posts about using them for an overhaul. As far IRAN, it's definitely an option to consider...but If I'm averaging 200+hrs/year...will I just be looking at a full overhaul in 3-4 years at that point if I just put a bandaid on?

Depends on ownership horizon, and budget. Flying that much is great for an engine, and if you just IRAN'd now, you'd very likely make TBO and beyond. I'd argue selling it as a well-running engine at or beyond TBO would net more than overhauling it now and selling it with 1000 hours.

The cam & lifters are the biggest weakness, followed by valves/guides. You could fix all of these for modest money now and keep flying...only risk would be a crank worn too much (by running too much metal thru the engine!) or a case that has been overhauled too many times already. I'd talk with Jewell about an IRAN and find a mechanic to help you with R&R. Optionally you could replace accessories, but not needed. Fuel pump maybe since it is easy with the engine off and inexpensive. Magnetos would need a 500 hr inspection perhaps. Hoses get replaced on condition. Ditto for engine controls.

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[carusoam]

Got any pictures of the flakes?

My O360 would show a couple of flakes at annual. Enough to make an owner cringe.

Looking at the 'common' challenge of a cam going away... The amount of metal that shows up starts to increase as the hardened outer layer is ground away. Then, the softer layer below, goes away faster....

The challenge of waiting to see teaspoons of metal...  is the chips will interfere with the rest of the engine... that gets expensive...

Some flakes... normal.

lots of flakes... not normal.

Sounds like it is time to get some photos of cam and lifter surfaces.  When the lifters surfaces look like the moon... bad.

For examples of these photos, search around here. Somebody posted what they had and how they got the photos.

Expect that at least one cylinder comes off to see enough...

Two cylinders come off (one at a time) to see the whole cam...

PP thoughts only, not my information...stuff I read on MS.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

2 hours ago, AlexLev said:

Well, the strange thing was the oil analysis from Blackstone from one oil change ago was fine. I sent the next few samples to avlab.com since they analyze the filter too. Here's the AOK engine analysis from Blackstone, see below -- curious what the latest report will show though..

There is wear metal that is too small to be filtered, that's what you see above.

there is larger metal caught by the oil filter 

and then there is huge chunks caught in the pickup screen or left in the oil pan.

 I consider the above as increasing in severity. Busch has a video on metal in the oil filter. I would find it and watch it.

[jaylw314]

35 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

There is wear metal that is too small to be filtered, that's what you see above.

there is larger metal caught by the oil filter 

and then there is huge chunks caught in the pickup screen or left in the oil pan.

 I consider the above as increasing in severity. Busch has a video on metal in the oil filter. I would find it and watch it.

It's here

https://youtu.be/MlsBDZ4e1ZM