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The evils of the Touch and Go


bob865

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7 minutes ago, PTK said:

Please show us your statistics that illustrate that electing to do t&g's "effectively" keeps insurance premiums from rising. ACTUAL numbers please.

Since now having statistics is your standard of argument - PTK - Please show us your statistics supporting any of your claims you made on this thread.

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There are many other stupid tricks that pilots do daily which have a far greater impact in insurance premiums than a simple gear up on a touch and go.  Just plain old gear up landings(oops I forgot) VFR into IMC, CFIT, run out of fuel etc. etc.....

The ones with fatalities have a far greater impact on insurance companies than a gear up landing.

Clarence

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59 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Having worked in insurance, I believe that if t&g was causing that many claims year in and year out, the insurance companies would likely exclude the practice from coverage.  Yet they don't.  Why?

You know what I really wish they would in fact because I subsidize all the airplane sitting on the ramp At my airport that Have been geared up for this kind of operation. In the past year a Bonanza and a Mooney. It's not illegal so they can't really ban it but I wish they would exclude it. 

Edited by jetdriven
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18 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Something that has been brought up a few times - is the workload for the T&G versus balked landing.

I am asking this in all seriousness. What are people doing on the T&G what reconfiguration is being done on the roll? Other than the flaps coming up - I cannot think of anything.

Flaps, trim, cowl flaps, carb heat. 

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6 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Something that has been brought up a few times - is the workload for the T&G versus balked landing.

I am asking this in all seriousness. What are people doing on the T&G what reconfiguration is being done on the roll? Other than the flaps coming up - I cannot think of anything.

The workload for a touch & go is not any greater than for a balked landing. It's a bit more than just the flaps (reset the trim for takeoff; perhaps adjust cowl flaps) but it is not a heavier workload than a balked landing. It's not about the workload; the argument is really about two things:

1. It's about where the reconfiguration occurs. In a balked landing, even after touching down, you nail the power first and reconfigure in the air; in a touch & go (at least for those who don;t equate touch & goes with balked landings) all the reconfiguration takes place on the ground. 

2. It's about need. We need to know how to do balked landings. If nothing else, they are a PTS/ACS maneuver most CFIs will cover on a checkride. We don't really need to know how to do a touch & go*.

[*which again gets into the problem of different people having different definitions.  Browse through the comments in the thread and you can see it one guy justifies touch & goes because it similar to a go-around; another says, a touch & go is not a go-around. I don't think you will find even one anti-touch & go post saying go-around should not be practiced. Instead, they are defining touch & go as I do - a landing of your choice followed by a takeoff of your choice, doing the reconfiguration during the rollout.]

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1 hour ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Having worked in insurance, I believe that if t&g was causing that many claims year in and year out, the insurance companies would likely exclude the practice from coverage.  Yet they don't.  Why?

Two possible reasons come to mind:

Probably because the individual claims are not as great in terms of money paid out, or it is very difficult to prove it was in fact a t&g.

But the underwriters only care about the claims. They will raise premiums for all of us or deny coverage. We should care because collectively the costs add up and it affects all of us in the pool.

Eventually when they have to raise premiums to the point where they become uncompetitive they will drop out of the ga market. This also hurts us. 

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On 9/15/2017 at 6:13 PM, KLRDMD said:

Personally, CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP and I won't do touch and goes or teach them in Mooneys. 

 

13 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

A touch and go is a different maneuver than a go around. With a go around you're still configured for landing and not trying to change configuration on the roll. Ill do stop and go's with students in the Mooney  but no reason for a touch and go. Rushing the configuration is also contrary to good teaching. After landing, stop, take a breath and go over the after landing checklist  

 

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Yes. And a long time ago a  student of mine in an Arrow grabbed the gear lever and actually pulled it out to Throw it on a touch and go. I slapped his hand away and he said why did you do that. He didn't even know his hand was on the gear. Shortly thereafter a MEl candidate on a checkride raised the gear on a Touch and Go and totaled that Baron, and the examiner lost his status. The same year, a flight school lost their Bonanza for the same reason. You know when a Bonanza hits the ground with the gear in transit the inner gear door bends the rib, and the wings have to come off, it basically totals the airplane. Spartan came out with a edict, absolutely no touch and goes in complex aircraft. After that, I've been firmly in the "no" camp. Again, I teach rejected landings but it is NOT the same maneuver. Full power, positive rate of climb, then do things. Your hand is on the throttle it never leaves. 

This just struck me. Many of those advocating against touch and goes in a Mooney are CFIs with a lot of Mooney time. As a general rule, most would say it is a good idea to listen to your teachers.  Maybe they've learned something about Mooneys and Mooney pilots while sitting in the right seat all those hours.

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Flaps, trim, cowl flaps, carb heat. 

I use 1/2 flaps and open cowl flaps on approach, no carb...so all I do is power with right hand and trim with the left.
Even if you forget, the slow climb will be a clue you forgot something and engine monitor will let you know if you forgot the cowl flaps, no big deal.
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11 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

That's a go around. You don't touch any configuration until you confirm positive rate of climb. 

 

-Robert,CFI

Really?

In every airplane I've ever flown and gotten a type rating in, the flaps are raised to a position to decrease drag without a positive rate of climb....only the gear is initially raised with "positive rate".

Very strange....you teach this?

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9 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

This just struck me. Many of those advocating against touch and goes in a Mooney are CFIs with a lot of Mooney time. As a general rule, most would say it is a good idea to listen to your teachers.  Maybe they've learned something about Mooneys and Mooney pilots while sitting in the right seat all those hours.

There is another possibility.... the few of you who are against touch and goes feed off of one another within a pretty small clique.

Certainly, the rest of the aviation world at large does touch and goes for training and proficiency.  And it's a big world outside.

Like I said many pages back, this whole subject is a head-scratcher for me.

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1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

You know what I really wish they would in fact because I subsidize all the airplane sitting on the ramp At my airport that Have been geared up for this kind of operation. In the past year a Bonanza and a Mooney. It's not illegal so they can't really ban it but I wish they would exclude it. 

In the mean time, quite possibly hundreds of pilots stay proficient with their landings and go-arounds by practicing T&Gs so didnot end up totalling their planes or killing themselves when the wind is blowing etc etc. 

When you advocate no T&Gas as a CFI you need to consider the consequence. You are probably discouraging a great proportion of people from staying proficient with their landing and go-around skills because not many pilots are willing to land and taxi back. Not to mention having to get back in the queue and ask for clearance in a busy GA airport.

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5 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

There is another possibility.... the few of you who are against touch and goes feed off of one another within a pretty small clique.

Certainly, the rest of the aviation world at large does touch and goes for training and proficiency.  And it's a big world outside.

Like I said many pages back, this whole subject is a head-scratcher for me.

The only non-GA airplanes I've done a touch and go in is a Beech1900 and a 747. The 1900 was an 85/15 training program which was sim time and a checkride then 3 bounces to be legal current. It was a time as money thing as it was done in the middle of the night. The 747 was again, a currency requirement when in Africa, the cost of canceling the flight was greater than eating the cost of flying empty.  Both airplanes, in which, if you touched any switch or control until after passing the hold short line was a bust. And in each plan we only did those one time. So,  no, 3-engine ferry's were more common. 

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28 minutes ago, kpaul said:

I did T&Gs on my private check ride as well as my ATP, separated by over 20 years.  Seems times are not changing outside of Mooney Space.

I did touch and goes on my private check ride but did not do touch and goes on my ATP check ride, separated by 22 years. Maybe times are changing outside of MooneySpace.

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15 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I did touch and goes on my private check ride but did not do touch and goes on my ATP check ride, separated by 22 years. Maybe times are changing outside of MooneySpace.

Was your ATP checkride in an airplane, or a simulator?  What aircraft?

I can't imagine that touch and goes are required maneuvers on any ATP checkride, so the lack of them is not surprising.

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Recurring themes...

The Brain not recognizing what it is doing.  'Distraction'

The Brain not being able to keep up with what is going on.  'Running out of runway'

 

GU Landing...

1) Distraction = brain fart = operating the wrong control. (Not as much of a problem with fixed gear AC)

2) Distractions occur more often after being tired, under increased stress, illness, have other pressures on your mind.

3) Brain farts happen to everybody, sooner or later.  The insurance companies haven't been able to make them illegal...

4) Expensive, as a simple prop strike can be 60+amus worth of work...

5) shape of the switch hasn't done enough to stop the distraction... flap switch shaped like a flap.  Gear switch shaped like a wheel.

 

Running out of runway...

In NJ over the last five years.

1) One Rental J went into the trees on a go-around...

2) One Bravo went into a fence far from the runway after losing control during the take-off portion...

3) Another Mooney ran off the end of a runway...

4) Mooney's accelerate slowly, while using up gobs of runway.

5) a go around needs to be started quickly, no time for decision making.  That decision was made in training and practiced long ago...

6) Its better to run off the end of the runway, braking, than run into a fence or trees...

7) The Brain seems to have difficulty inferring acceleration, and available runway length, to successfully perform a take-off...

 

Training and practice, and using a known runway seem to be helpful at mitigating these challenges...

Renting a plane, not getting the practice and performing a touch and go would be loading up multiple levels of risk.

No statistics, just stuff I read around MS...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Recurring themes...

 Distraction = brain fart = operating the wrong control. (Not as much of a problem with fixed gear AC)

No statistics, just stuff I read around MS...

Best regards,

-a-

TnG's are a maneuver.  Just like any other maneuver, we must be taught, practice and become proficient.  No one is advocating an unprepared pilot execute a T n G, or any other maneuver.  So many of the "anti-posters" refer to control confusion on the runway.  Such is certainly possible during a T n G, just as during any other busy maneuver.

That's why we practice them!!!  

We get all that muscle memory straightened out in training.  We learn to do all those tasks associated with the TnG smoothly, proficiently, and without fear.

A new instrument pilot grappling with the 5 T's is not encouraged to quit doing approaches because he might get them confused....he is encouraged to keep practicing until he is proficient.  It is the job of the instructor to help him succeed.

 

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@RobertGary1 Recently they had just finished re-striping the north end of the runway extension, I had taken off to the north but an hour later the winds favored a landing to the south. The NOTAM had expired, the giant “X” had been removed and the paint crew had been gone for 2 days and the new 6000ft runway was all mine. This was the first flight of my transition training, while downwind I had a really good view of the 1000 ft extension and all was good, on short final I could still see where the both the old & temporary thresholds had been, what I couldn’t see was the plastic barricades (parking stops) that had been placed across the runway at the bottom of the old threshold (same width of the stripe) and they blended in damn near perfectly until on the ground, so never having to do a touch n go wasn’t going to work. The Pilot & Controller Glossary defines a Touch n Go as “an operation by an aircraft that lands and departs on a runway without stopping or exiting the runway” while I didn’t actually climb out it was more of a little power and hop over and settle back down

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Well I'm off to fly my mooney today. Perhaps I'll do a touch and go or three -- maybe even one or two on a grass runway.

otoh maybe I'd better call them balked landings; the way I do them, my right hand never leaves the throttle while on the ground.... there's more than one way to skin a cat, land a plane, etc.

Fly safe everyone!

Regarding insurance... a positive way to keep everyone's rates super low is to eliminate the risk entirely, and not fly. Lock up the hangar for good and throw away the key.

Edited by Immelman
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3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Was your ATP checkride in an airplane, or a simulator?  What aircraft? I can't imagine that touch and goes are required maneuvers on any ATP checkride, so the lack of them is not surprising.

Airplane, P337. It was the airplane I owned at the time.

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5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

TnG's are a maneuver.  Just like any other maneuver, we must be taught, practice and become proficient.  No one is advocating an unprepared pilot execute a T n G, or any other maneuver.  So many of the "anti-posters" refer to control confusion on the runway.  Such is certainly possible during a T n G, just as during any other busy maneuver.

That's why we practice them!!!  

We get all that muscle memory straightened out in training.  We learn to do all those tasks associated with the TnG smoothly, proficiently, and without fear.

A new instrument pilot grappling with the 5 T's is not encouraged to quit doing approaches because he might get them confused....he is encouraged to keep practicing until he is proficient.  It is the job of the instructor to help him succeed.

 

The same can be said for practicing runway turn backs. Heck even that AOPA video helped encourage some more of that. Go ahead, get to 700', pull that throttle off and go for it. I bet you'll make it the first time and when you keep practicing them you'll get real good.  Muscle memory will straighten itself out. It's legal. Why not?  

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I think the issue truly is talking in absolutes. 

I instruct much more complicated and risky maneuvera. Landing in Degraded Visual Environments and there are those that can be taught to execute only to fly exactly the profile and if you are off a small amount you waveoff. Then there are those that can make corrections and get back on for a safe landing. 

Doesnt mean that the one pilot is not capable of completing the mission. Just has to execute differently. 

So for those that can safely execute T&Gs keep doing so. For those that know they shouldn't be honest with yourself and do a Stop and Go. 

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