carusoam Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 Not sure how many broken cables on the USS Kitty Hawk occurred. The one I read about indicated a pretty tough day at work. A broken cable or rope failure has a tendency to... not do its intended job. interfere with recovering from the error. releases all the energy stored up in the stretched cable. Like a knife accelerating across the deck... I have seen a tow rope break on a tug boat. That was a lot of stored energy... I have seen a tie down fail, releasing a C150 and its new owner in a random arc... If you can post it, I'm sure to look it up... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 1 hour ago, steingar said: You can run into me in the two seconds your head is down while you're playing with your antiquated toy. I can get those values in my head about as quickly. It's called arithmetic. Ok, I guess it was a useless invention used by just about every pilot for 50 years or so. I'm sorry you never became proficient with one. Before DMEs were common, it was the only practical way to know when you would get to the next waypoint or what your ground speed was. Ok, let's see how good you are at arithmetic. Time yourself now. You just flew a 22 mile leg in 5 min 22 seconds. How long will it take to get to the next waypoint which is 31 miles. Let us know how long it took you to do that in your head. And how accurate you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragedracer1977 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 Laden or unladen? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 1 hour ago, carusoam said: Not sure how many broken cables on the USS Kitty Hawk occurred. The one I read about indicated a pretty tough day at work. A broken cable or rope failure has a tendency to... not do its intended job. interfere with recovering from the error. releases all the energy stored up in the stretched cable. Like a knife accelerating across the deck... I have seen a tow rope break on a tug boat. That was a lot of stored energy... I have seen a tie down fail, releasing a C150 and its new owner in a random arc... If you can post it, I'm sure to look it up... Best regards, -a- The arresting gear was set for the wrong tension setting: about 9000 lbs. my jet weighed just under maximum trap: 44,000 lbs. The wire still slowed my jet down quite a bit- I was under 48 knots when I went off the front of the landing area... but that was far too slow to fly: I needed at least triple digits to get my jet airborne at that weight. When I ejected, my seat went almost parallel to the flight deck: 200-ish yards in front of the ship. Oneswingin the chute and I was in the water..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 Most of the replies against teaching the use of an E6B is based on your current aircraft and the avionics in your panel and/or your favorite tablet and app which is no where near what a primary trainer is. Primary students are feed a little at a time so they can let it soak in. You would never train a primary student in a complex advanced aircraft, they would be over whelmed and probably quit. Do they need to be a master on the E6B?, No! but they should at least be shown the basic calculations, I say shown because most of the E6B's I have seen have the basic instructions printed right on them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 58 minutes ago, RLCarter said: Most of the replies against teaching the use of an E6B is based on your current aircraft and the avionics in your panel and/or your favorite tablet and app which is no where near what a primary trainer is. Primary students are feed a little at a time so they can let it soak in. You would never train a primary student in a complex advanced aircraft, they would be over whelmed and probably quit. Do they need to be a master on the E6B?, No! but they should at least be shown the basic calculations, I say shown because most of the E6B's I have seen have the basic instructions printed right on them. That's a valid point! And most of the basic trainers don't have a GPS, as well. But I think that the functionality of a E6B, which was designed and implemented far before a scientific calculator, let alone an EFB, can be handled by pretty much any modern "device"- so while the trainers may be "simple", should students be forced to learn using old technology, even if its no longer relevant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 6 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said: Laden or unladen? African or European Swallow? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but an E6B is much faster to use than a cell phone. And it can be done with one hand. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Ok, I guess it was a useless invention used by just about every pilot for 50 years or so. I'm sorry you never became proficient with one. Before DMEs were common, it was the only practical way to know when you would get to the next waypoint or what your ground speed was. Ok, let's see how good you are at arithmetic. Time yourself now. You just flew a 22 mile leg in 5 min 22 seconds. How long will it take to get to the next waypoint which is 31 miles. Let us know how long it took you to do that in your head. And how accurate you are. Here is what I did in my head in about 5 seconds - takes longer to type it - 22/11=2. 33/3=3. 31 is almost 33. SO 33/22 is almost 1.5, but 31/22 is just a little less. So half of 5:00 is 2:30 and half of 22 is 11 but skip that second part because 31 is smaller than 33. So basically add 2:30 onto 5:22 and take off just a bit. SO 7:52 minutes a bit, say 7:45 was the answer I got in 5 seconds using "approximate arithmetic." Now I did it on my calculator and I see I was a bit high, but not a lot, just a few seconds, and anyway, I would say that the measurement error would account for a bit of error anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: Here is what I did in my head in about 5 seconds - takes longer to type it - 22/11=2. 33/3=3. 31 is almost 33. SO 33/22 is almost 1.5, but 31/22 is just a little less. So half of 5:00 is 2:30 and half of 22 is 11 but skip that second part because 31 is smaller than 33. So basically add 2:30 onto 5:22 and take off just a bit. SO 7:52 minutes a bit, say 7:45 was the answer I got in 5 seconds using "approximate arithmetic." Now I did it on my calculator and I see I was a bit high, but not a lot, just a few seconds, and anyway, I would say that the measurement error would account for a bit of error anyway. Oh, and what was your ground speed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but an E6B is much faster to use than a cell phone. And it can be done with one hand. But it does require good vision, I couldn't use E6B without my readers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) 23 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: Oh, and what was your ground speed? You didn't ask before. 60/5=12. But thats a tad high because it should be 60 min/5:22, so say what, 11.5? So 10 * 22mi is 220 mi. So lets call it 220+22+a bit more for that 0.5 or call it 250....250 is the answer if you want an answer in a few seconds from my head. Ok the real answer not in my head but on a calculator from here on my laptop, before I finish this cup of coffee and go to work: 5:22 is 322 seconds (still in my head). 60 min is 3600 seconds (still in my head). 3600/322 * 22mi=245.9627 mph (that one on my calculator)...probably knots because you probably meant nautical miles. But that much precision is probably beyond the accuracy of the measurement of distance and time, so lets call it 246. Even faster than the first thing I did for approximate arithmetic - just call 5:22 to be about 5. so 60/5=12 so 22*12=264, so you know you are not quite 264 but that was an even rougher estimate. Edited September 5, 2017 by aviatoreb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: Oh, and what was your ground speed? African or European Swallow? And I need to know if it is during an eclipse or not. Edited September 5, 2017 by aviatoreb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I think most of the people bad mouthing the E6B have never been in a situation where it would be useful. It is an amazingly clever and useful device. I will admit that the last time I used one on a regular basis was back in the early 80s. Once you figure out how to use it, it will give you the answers you need very quickly with very little head down time. Much less then a calculator or cell phone. I used to do the Kachina Doll Air Rally. You had to find 10 different waypoints by pilotage using only a sectional, E6B and a plotter. The judges would cover your GPS, VOR and DME screens with masking tape before the start. No IPads or Cell phones allowed in the cockpit. The time difference between the top three finishers was usually less than 5 seconds. (You had to estimate your trip time before the start and how close you came to your estimate was a big part of your score). It was a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 34 minutes ago, teejayevans said: But it does require good vision, I couldn't use E6B without my readers Can't run my new Avidyne without my readers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragedracer1977 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I would bet "real" money that guys with a ton of electronic gizmos spend more time eyes in the cockpit than a guy with a single nav comm and an E6b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 10 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: Ok, I guess it was a useless invention used by just about every pilot for 50 years or so. I'm sorry you never became proficient with one. Before DMEs were common, it was the only practical way to know when you would get to the next waypoint or what your ground speed was. Ok, let's see how good you are at arithmetic. Time yourself now. You just flew a 22 mile leg in 5 min 22 seconds. How long will it take to get to the next waypoint which is 31 miles. Let us know how long it took you to do that in your head. And how accurate you are. Took about 10 seconds, and I was accurate within about 10%. Its called arithmetic. You should really try it. That said, I have a phone that can use an inexpensive program to tell where I am and where I'm going at all times. With an inexpensive receiver I can even see all he traffic that has a transponder. If there are people who favor antiquated technology over inexpensive and simple tools for situational awareness, I hope they aren't flying anywhere near me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 25 minutes ago, steingar said: If there are people who favor antiquated technology over inexpensive and simple tools for situational awareness, I hope they aren't flying anywhere near me. So what your saying is you would rather a fly beside a student pilot with a modern panel and gadgets than a 10,000 hr pilot in his Cub that doesn't even have an electrical system? You might as well sell your aircraft because at some point your attitude, ego and complacency will meet up with reality and it generally isn't good 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 I can't think of any scenario where getting the answer from an E6B, arithmetic in my head, from any number of apps on my phone/tablet, etc. is an emergency requiring sub minute speed. It seems a natural thing that more "seasoned" pilots would be more comfortable with a manual method (E6B) than with button pushing on the latest electronic gadget. Any kid learning to fly today, even in the most stripped down of trainers without any "sophisticated" gadgets, will still have a smart phone in their pocket and a tablet in their flight bag. Knowing the principals and the mathematics involved in the calculations is important. The E6B was developed to be a "quicker" way to do the math. Today in the 21st century, we have many, much better tools that are "quicker and easier" at doing the math. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 5 hours ago, RLCarter said: So what your saying is you would rather a fly beside a student pilot with a modern panel and gadgets than a 10,000 hr pilot in his Cub that doesn't even have an electrical system? You might as well sell your aircraft because at some point your attitude, ego and complacency will meet up with reality and it generally isn't good Anyone in a Cub could have a handheld GPS receiver to give situational awareness. iPads cost hundreds of dollars, and should be affordable to any pilot. They can easily be used for navigation. Heck, your damn smartphone can do as well. If you turn down inexpensive tools that give you unparalleled situational awareness because you are hidebound to your grandfather's technology, then I have a name for you which isn't nice and I will not share it here. I'm glad you're far away from me because I never want to fly near you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 18 hours ago, M016576 said: If anyone is interested in the platform camera video of my ejection, just pm me: I'll e-mail it to you, or maybe I'll just post it on youtube. That's the sort of thing that should definitely be on youtube for people to see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragedracer1977 Posted September 5, 2017 Report Share Posted September 5, 2017 Wow this topic went sideways... Can we talk about touch and goes or something instead? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 @steingar , you really need to go back and read the title and my posts, you seem very adamant about not flying near me or any other pilot that knows how to use an E6B (you mention it 3 different times) for fear that they will run into you into you in 2 seconds while their head is down and I quote “playing with your antiquated toy”. Surely you don’t think that you are the only one that can multi-task? In your first post you seem to brag and once again I’ll quote you “I navigate with an iPad. A hugely important task with no paper backup of any kind. Yes, I have lots of redundancy”…hmmm? I use a GPS, VOR/LOC/GS(s) ADF, DME at least 1 iPad running my favorite “moving map” app, plus should the ipad crap out I also have the same app on my iPhone, but according to you I’m still dangerous…hmmm? Did I mention I can use all of the equipment I listed above without even being able to see out of the aircraft? Sometimes for fun I even block a few of my antiquated steam gauges (I guess these are toys too) and see if I can land on the runway (I’ll fess up, I look out side sometimes as low 200agl). Here is another useless thing I practice sometimes, I grab my CFI and do a zero zero take off on a 50ft wide runway…..maybe your right in saying people that can use an E6B are dangerous or maybe your not. So lose the attitude that ALL pilots that can use an E6B are dangerous, deflate the ego that you are better than anyone that can use an E6B and get back to me with your answer. By the way the manual E6B gets taken out of my kneeboard maybe twice a year while on the ground just for practice, the electronic E6B gets used maybe 6 times a year and maybe only a few times in the air, and I also carry a handheld Nav/Com with me. Oh and by the way you also said earlier that it took you 10 seconds to figure out the time to a waypoint 31 miles away but you forgot to give us the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted September 6, 2017 Report Share Posted September 6, 2017 "Should we still use old tech"? When I learned to fly the E6B was not used by my instructors. Most of my training was on flight maneuvers and take offs and landings. GPS was in its infancy, but we were "Not allowed" to use it in the aircraft during training. This seemed "silly" to me at the time of training. Charts were on there way out. All of my cross country flights were completed using sectionals/time/speed and ground reference (checking a couple Water towers to make sure I WAS where I thought I was. I was, so confidence was built. I think using sectionals in training is fine. E6B/wiz wheel? Not so much for me personally. Those that are "good at math" love and enjoy it. I use math when I must, not for pleasure. Any gadget or learning tool that provides an a-ha moment for a would be licensed pilot in training is a good thing. E6B wasn't that tool for me, but others seem to really enjoy it and their history with using the tool. My most valued tools now are the awesome weather in Garmin Pilot for flight planning and the ability to pull up weather at airports along flight. Really value this tech. Love runway extensions to help plan and of course terrain indicators with call out. Some day soon HUD for "poor people" will be here. I just saw a story last night discussing how in 5-10 years more time will be spent in virtual reality than not. Really? Wow. Future is now? Flat screen T.V's? So yesterday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted September 10, 2017 Report Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) On 9/5/2017 at 1:49 PM, EricJ said: That's the sort of thing that should definitely be on youtube for people to see. Sorry, took me a while to getting around to putting it on youtube. Edited September 10, 2017 by M016576 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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