Looking at an M20E

[bob865]

Hello all,

New to the forum but have been lurking around since I first ran across this plane trying to learn what I could about it.  But now as the deal progresses I thought I would see what info I could learn by asking directly.

Here is what I have found.  An older gentleman at the airport has a 1975 Mooney M20E that he has agreed to sell.  His wife recently died, he has lost his medical, and his grandson said he wasn't interested in the plane so he decided to sell.  Other than about 6 months of not flying, the plane is in good shape.  We both use the same mechanic and the mechanic vouches for the state of the plane.  The interior was redone a few years ago, so it's in good shape and the paint is pretty good also.  The paint a bit weathered and oxidized from sitting and not being washed, but I've volunteered to wash it and with a light buff it shines and looks great.

The Engine on the plane was completely rebuilt with the exception of the cam shaft about 300 hrs ago.  They didn't do the cam shaft, so they can't call it a rebuild and 0 the engine time, but it has 300 hrs since the rebuild. I have flown the plane.  She flies fast, straight, and level.  Big difference from my Cherokee 140 I've been flying for the past year.  He has also done some of the speed mods (The names/details escape me now but it is something with the cowl and not the lopresti mods).  Overall, he took really good care of the plane until the recent changes in his life that force the change.

Equipment is standard IFR equipment, ADF, DME, Dual comm/navs, and a LORAN if you can believe it.  

I'm in the process of checking out the engine to see if the new AD recently issued affects it to make sure I don't get hit with a surprise bill.

He is asking $35k for it.  From what I can tell, it is a great deal for the plane.  Asking the Mooney Aficionados to see if you guys have anything I should be wary of or check as we continue to look at the plane?

I don't have pictures this moment.  I changed phones recently and all of my pictures were on the other one, but will post a few when I can to the airport and shoot a couple.

[steingar]

Sounds like a very good deal indeed if that rebuilt engine is for real.

[Bob_Belville]

Bob,

The price seems fair if it turns out that there are no surprises. The panel does not sound like it will be satisfactory of course but that depends upon what your mission is. If you get serious I'd recommend you fly up to KMRN for @AGL Aviation, a MSC, to do a PPI. Has the plane been hangared? You'll want to be sure there is no corrosion and whether the fuel tanks will need patching or resealing along with a few other Mooney specific issues.  FWIW, it seems odd to me that the engine was "overhauled" and the cam was not replaced. Do you suppose he meant the crank? The weak link for the IO360 is usually the cam/lifters.

[Bob_Belville]

Bob, by the way, 1975 was the last year for the M20E, Chaparral, and there were only 20 built. The last s/n was 21-1180.

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

[bob865]

28 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Bob, by the way, 1975 was the last year for the M20E, Chaparral, and there were only 20 built. The last s/n was 21-1180.

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

It's #1179.  Almost the last.

[Bob_Belville]

24 minutes ago, bob865 said:

It's #1179.  Almost the last.

I do hope you bring it to AGL, my home field, I'd love to see what changes were made by the end of the run compared to my '66 which came off the line at the peak of the production. 

[Mooneymite]

4 hours ago, bob865 said:

They didn't do the cam shaft, so they can't call it a rebuild and 0 the engine time, but it has 300 hrs since the rebuild.

I'm a little perplexed by this line.  I was under the impression that only specific items had to be replaced for a "re-build" to be called an "overhaul".  Some items, like the camshaft only had to mic out to "service limits" to be re-used.  If this is true, then did the camshaft not measure up to "service limits"?  If not, then it should have been replaced.

I'm sure the engine folks can set me straight on this....  

[N6758N]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

I'm a little perplexed by this line.  I was under the impression that only specific items had to be replaced for a "re-build" to be called an "overhaul".  Some items, like the camshaft only had to mic out to "service limits" to be re-used.  If this is true, then did the camshaft not measure up to "service limits"?  If not, then it should have been replaced.

I'm sure the engine folks can set me straight on this....  

This is correct, and I was wondering the same thing myself. Also, new cams for Lycoming are pretty cheap so it is surprising it wasn't replaced anyways. 

[zaitcev]

4 hours ago, bob865 said:

He is asking $35k for it.

$35k is suspiciously cheap for a 1975 Chapparal with 300 SMOH. I paid $48k for my 1969 with similar equipment and times. In my search I looked at some $35k M20Es, Fs, and Cs, and every plane came with major red flags. One has even been in a flood.

[bob865]

33 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

I'm a little perplexed by this line.  I was under the impression that only specific items had to be replaced for a "re-build" to be called an "overhaul".  Some items, like the camshaft only had to mic out to "service limits" to be re-used.  If this is true, then did the camshaft not measure up to "service limits"?  If not, then it should have been replaced.

I'm sure the engine folks can set me straight on this....  

To be honest, I'm still vague on this topic as well.  This is just what I was told by the seller.  The mechanic said that it was basically a rebuilt engine but not a legal rebuild so not a 0 time rebuild.  I'm expecting to get the logs this week to shed some more light on this topic.  Cam shaft seems suspicious to me as someone else mentioned, but as of this moment, I'm just passing along what I've heard so far.  I'm still early in this buying process as of now and starting to verify seller/mechanic claims.

[bob865]

9 minutes ago, zaitcev said:

every plane came with major red flags. One has even been in a flood.

I agree.  Main reason I'm here asking questions.  Looking for the experience of the group of owners to try to help me find any red flags.

I know the seller and I know the mechanic and the plane was not for sale, we asked if he was interested in selling.  I can partially explain the low price tag, but I still don't want to put money down on a time bomb.

[N6758N]

Google search the N number and or serial number, use aviation database, that will tell you if there have been any incidents/accidents in its history. 

[KSMooniac]

Keep digging, but it sounds like you might have found a good deal. Get the full story on the engine, see if the prop has the AD or not, check for fuel leaks and corrosion. Beyond that, it sounds like a great value as-is, with lots of headroom to improve the panel with the new stuff coming out.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Mooneymite]

9 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Keep digging, but it sounds like you might have found a good deal. Get the full story on the engine, see if the prop has the AD or not, check for fuel leaks and corrosion. Beyond that, it sounds like a great value as-is, with lots of headroom to improve the panel with the new stuff coming out.

Be skeptical, be analytical, but sometimes....just sometimes, you find a good deal on a good airplane.

[pinerunner]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

I'm a little perplexed by this line.  I was under the impression that only specific items had to be replaced for a "re-build" to be called an "overhaul".  Some items, like the camshaft only had to mic out to "service limits" to be re-used.  If this is true, then did the camshaft not measure up to "service limits"?  If not, then it should have been replaced.

I'm sure the engine folks can set me straight on this....  

My guess is they didn't split the case. If they had there would be no reason not to take out the camshaft and measure it (unless they were just afraid of the answer they'd get I suppose). If they got a good look at the lobes and they looked fine that would still be good information to have. I bet their "almost complete overhaul" was a top overhaul. They should give you the actual time since the last overhaul. It would also be good to know what forced the top overhaul. The need for a couple top overhauls between majors shouldn't be accepted as normal. 

[rbridges]

Someone mentioned a prebuy. That's what I'd do. Come to an agreement on price and fly it someplace for an impartial fresh set of eyes. Don't let your current mechanic do it. 

[bob865]

Not the best picture, but a quick one I took at the airport when we first started looking at her.  This was taken before she was washed so the paint is still pretty dull.  We did a quick wash and slight buff to check out the paint to see its real condition and it shined up really well.  No (or very few) chips and cracks.  A serious wash/buff/wax will maker her shine like a new penny.    Tanks were full and the ground was dry, so no fuel leaks that were obvious to speak of.  Took her for another flight and the only squawks that I found were:

1. ammeter doesn't seem to read.  Had the mechanic check the alternator and said it was working find.  Had to be gauge.  Mechanic/seller have already ordered a replacement combo ammeter/voltmeter to replace it.

2.  Intercomm is shot.  The noise on the pilot's connection is terrible.  Suspect something loose inside the box because it was find until we went full power for takeoff.  Going to use our intercomm out of our cherokee to verify that it's the intercomm and not the radios/audio panel.

On another note, the glass in the picture is really milky from sun exposure.  All of the glass has already been replaced.  The owner insisted he replace it before we flew it.  He had already ordered it before we approached him about selling, it just hadn't been installed.  That has been done now.

Edited August 31, 2017 by bob865

[steingar]

Like I said, 35K for a working Chaparral sounds like a damn good deal.  I saw one for 38K locally but couldn't get to it before it sold, saw nothing amiss in the ad.   Good luck, I hope you get into an M20E.  They're really nice airplanes, and fast.

[HRM]

On 8/29/2017 at 0:49 PM, bob865 said:

I'm expecting to get the logs this week to shed some more light on this topic.

This should explain it all (the rebuild). If not, then you may want to lower your offer.

[MyNameIsNobody]

I have a '66 M20E.  I don't wish you "luck" as I would rather you "know" than be "lucky".

-Engines can only be "zero" timed by Lycoming (The Mfr.).  My engine was overhauled at Poplar Grove over ten years ago.  Logs will tell what was done.  (And not done). This is VERY important!

-An overhaul can be called an overhaul when "stuff" isn't done.  

-New or refurbished motor mount and rubber on mounts?

-Accessories (stuff that "hangs on the engine" overhauled?  Oil Cooler, Exhaust, ALL HOSES AND harnesses for plugs.  Both Mags overhauled?  Engine vacuum replaced or overhauled?  Prop overhauled.  Hub overhauled?

-Engine New pistons or re-sized?  Was the case split and the crankshaft and cams found to be within service or new limit range?  An engine is great until it isn't.  We are talking writing a check for >$30grand to do a major overhaul.  Accessories are "extra".

-Fuel tanks will or are seeping/leaking if over 30 years old.  Fill the tanks.  Smell in cabin?  Fuel senders are on sidewalls.  They will leak.  Leaks aren't a no-go unless beyond a seap.  I lived with them for years...BUT it is 7500 bucks to re-seal tanks.  More for bladders.

-Should show in logbook that the SB for interior cage inspection has been completed and old insulation removed.  Has rear seat been removed and spar looked at?

-Corrosion in wings?  These can be plane killers as advanced corrosion can be so cost prohibitive to replace that you should just "pass".  This stuff will ground an airframe and put you and those you love at risk.

-A pre-buy inspection by someone that KNOWS Mooneys is of absolute critical importance.  I didn't and it cost me well over $15 grand.

The plane has a lower cowl anti-guppy enclosure and appears to have a one piece windshield.  your plane should have a semi-six pack, but equipment is dated and ADSB compliance (about 4-7k) looms.

You washed the damn thing, so like holding the puppy you are emotionally vested.  BE SMART.  SMART up front will keeep you smiling for years into the future.

ALL vintage planes are Money Pits.  Keep repeating that and you will be O.K.

Edited September 1, 2017 by MyNameIsNobody

[bob865]

So I finally got a chance to look through the books to find some more information on the plane.

The 'overhaul' that the owner spoke about was due to a prop strike.  So not an overhaul at all.  The engine is a 1600-ish hour SMOH engine.  The prop however is truly 300-ish hours SPOH as it was replaced with an overhauled prop at the time.  New blades and new hub.

The inspection/repair was done by G&N aircraft in Griffith, IN.  The repair is well documented in the logs and seems to be pretty extensive.  So not a 300 hr overhauled engine as originally suggested, but 300 since prop strike.  It did receive new (rebuilt) magnetos and new (rebuilt) lifters, new bolts and seals as required for a tear down and necessary magnaflux inspection.  There are the matching log entries in the airframe log for mounts, etc that were inspected and replaced following the incident.

Talked to the mechanic about it and he shared that the incident happened while the plane flying at a local field doing touch and go's and the strike was so minor the pilot didn't know he had even tipped the prop till he returned the plane home.  Is this likely?  Seems like a prop strike would be a violent event that you would always know it happened?

I've talked to AGL Aviation as suggested by @Bob_Belville about a pre-buy to get someone who KNOWS mooney's to take a look.  In the process of trying to get insurance arranged to get the plane up there.  The owner has lost his medical and neither myself or my partner can fly it, but I have found a ferry pilot who has agreed to do the flying and working with the insurance to make sure they will allow it.  As soon as that clears, I'm going to get it scheduled to get into AGL for a pre-buy.

Progress......Slow Progress.......but still Progress. 

[gsxrpilot]

On 8/31/2017 at 7:29 AM, bob865 said:

Tanks were full and the ground was dry, so no fuel leaks that were obvious to speak of.  

Leaky tanks will not show any fuel on the ground. It will have evaporated as soon as it hit the ground. Lay on a creeper underneath the plane and look for any blue staining on the underside of the wings, the wheel wells, the wing roots, etc. Also pull back the carpet panels that run on the side under the door, and the corresponding on on the left side. (Seats usually have to be removed). Again, look for blue staining on the backing of the carpet, the insulation, or on anything in that area.

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

Leaky tanks will not show any fuel on the ground. It will have evaporated as soon as it hit the ground. Lay on a creeper underneath the plane and look for any blue staining on the underside of the wings, the wheel wells, the wing roots, etc. Also pull back the carpet panels that run on the side under the door, and the corresponding on on the left side. (Seats usually have to be removed). Again, look for blue staining on the backing of the carpet, the insulation, or on anything in that area.

If there are leaks on the cabin side which would probably be from the gaskets on the fuel level sensors, you will smell gasoline fumes when you open the door of the cabin that has been closed up. If you do see stain around those gaskets it is likely a minor deal to replace the gaskets. The biggest part of the task is to drain the tank.

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

Talked to the mechanic about it and he shared that the incident happened while the plane flying at a local field doing touch and go's and the strike was so minor the pilot didn't know he had even tipped the prop till he returned the plane home.  Is this likely?  Seems like a prop strike would be a violent event that you would always know it happened?

I had a "minimal" prop strike while taxiing at Minuteman Field. With noise canceling headsets on I was not sure, but Nancy confirmed that something had happened. When I shut down I found that the tips of the prop had indeed scrapped. It's extremely unlikely as least to me that the engine was affected. However the mandatory teardown revealed cam and lifter corrosion which is a common(?) issue with our IO360.  

[bob865]

16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Again, look for blue staining on the backing of the carpet, the insulation, or on anything in that area.

May be a challenge to find blue stains on the blue carpet. 

I'll take a look and see what I can see, or ask that it get checked during the pre-buy.