Mooney Bladder Install

[Mr Bill]

6758N,

I got the wrong AD number. Here is the AD from the FAA website. The new caps solve one of the items. The wedge install would involve pulling two bladders. I thought I'd send along this info to save you trouble later, in case you didn't get this info with your bladders.  Good luck on your project. Really nice work!

Mr Bill

Scan_0001.pdf

Scan_0002.pdf

Scan_0003.pdf

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, Mr Bill said:

6758N,

I got the wrong AD number. Here is the AD from the FAA website. The new caps solve one of the items. The wedge install would involve pulling two bladders. I thought I'd send along this info to save you trouble later, in case you didn't get this info with your bladders.  Good luck on your project. Really nice work!

Mr Bill

Scan_0001.pdf

Scan_0002.pdf

Scan_0003.pdf

This was a strange AD in some regards. Never understood why the hole had to be drilled in the engine crankcase breather tube. If I recall it was foam inserts, new caps (there was some discretion on the type), vanes for the vents and the breather tube hole. Thanks for posting this.

[Marauder]

And, since we are speaking bladders. I spoke with Mike from Grigg's today. I mentioned that when I had my JPI 900 installed my IA could not get more than 50 gallons in the plane. He told me that he was surprised that it was less than the STC showed. He suggested checking to make sure the bladders did not fold over on itself. Little leery of sticking my borescope with the light in the tank with some vapors still in there.

Mike is currently installing a system in a J and told me he will check the fuel capacity for me. Should help with this mystery a few of us have seen.

 

[TonyK]

Mine has a placard for 25 gallons which is contradictory to the paperwork.   I haven't tried to run it dry to confirm.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, Mr Bill said:

6758N,

I got the wrong AD number. Here is the AD from the FAA website. The new caps solve one of the items. The wedge install would involve pulling two bladders. I thought I'd send along this info to save you trouble later, in case you didn't get this info with your bladders.  Good luck on your project. Really nice work!

Mr Bill

Scan_0001.pdf

Scan_0002.pdf

Scan_0003.pdf

Uh....according to a post by Chris Murley, the new caps do not satisfy the AD....At least that's the way I interpreted his reply to my question on page two of the thread about bladders.

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/23061-fuel-bladders-soon-to-be-approved/?page=2

 

[Marauder]

11 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Uh....according to a post by Chris Murley, the new caps do not satisfy the AD....At least that's the way I interpreted his reply to my question on page two of the thread about bladders.

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/23061-fuel-bladders-soon-to-be-approved/?page=2

 

Gus -- my belief the only way to do away with the cap issue is to put the Piper style raised caps on. The compliance requirement for either the new style locking or the original Shaw caps is to add verbiage to the POH. IMHO it is something we should all be doing regardless of whether we are talking about the flush caps on bladder systems or those found on the wet wings.

 

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Marauder said:

Gus -- my belief the only way to do away with the cap issue is to put the Piper style raised caps on. The compliance requirement for either the new style locking or the original Shaw caps is to add verbiage to the POH. IMHO it is something we should all be doing regardless of whether we are talking about the flush caps on bladder systems or those found on the wet wings.

Exactly!  Which is why I never changed caps, Chris.

As a data point, I have never found a drop of water in my bladders (original Shaw caps with original O-rings) in 19 years of ownership.  To be honest, the airplane is kept in a hangar except when flying/over-nighting.

Have you ever gotten any water?

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Exactly!  Which is why I never changed caps, Chris.

As a data point, I have never found a drop of water in my bladders (original Shaw caps with original O-rings) in 19 years of ownership.  To be honest, the airplane is kept in a hangar except when flying/over-nighting.

Have you ever gotten any water?

My experience - hangared at home, bladders with flush caps - is the same except that I've only had my E for 5.5 years. I've never found a drop of water in the tanks. When the wing is wet, if I have to remove caps, I wipe and blow away any surface water in and around the cap crevasses before opening.  

[Marauder]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

Exactly!  Which is why I never changed caps, Chris.

As a data point, I have never found a drop of water in my bladders (original Shaw caps with original O-rings) in 19 years of ownership.  To be honest, the airplane is kept in a hangar except when flying/over-nighting.

Have you ever gotten any water?

Nope. No water ever either. My concern was that at 26 years, my caps were starting to get sloppy at the center post and after buying a set from bluehighway, I took mine apart. The center O ring was getting loose, so I expected that at some point it would begin leaking.

BTW -- taking one of these apart is a kiss of death. Parker Hannifin bought Shaw and appears to have no interest in supporting these caps. 

[Mooneymite]

I bought a "back-up" cap from Jim, too.  I don't think the caps will ever wear out based on my experience, but I figured if I flew off and left one behind, I'd really wish I had a spare!

Generally, buying a spare anything ensures you'll never need it.  

Seeing yours all apart confirms my suspicion that there is magic inside those caps.

[N6758N]

It's been a busy few days but I have had a few hours to spare to work on the bladder project. Things are moving along albeit slowly. I now have most off the holes drilled in the ribs as well as the new sump drain holes. At first I was super nervous drilling holes inside the wings but after the 3rd or 4th it was not so painful. The instructions I have been using are very vague and you really have to pay attention to the drawings to get accurate measurements for hole placements. A few of the holes, particularly the new sump drain holes would have nicked the spar cap if I had placed them where the drawings said to, so I had to adjust those hole locations accordingly.The Mooney ribs are incredibly thick, more so than any other aircraft I have done sheetmetal work on, but I guess we shouldn't be surprised by that. The cheap chinese 2" hole saw I purchased for one of the holes couldn't even make it through once! @Mr Bill thanks for the heads up on the ADs, I am already aware and am incorporating any changes required by them into this install. 

 

 

[N6758N]

I haven't taken pictures since this weekend, but I did manage to get a few things done amidst putting new senders in @Marauders plane at the same time. I am done drilling and cutting and starting to put foam in the tanks, fuel cells to follow. Attached is a picture of the blanking plates I made to cover up the lightning holes inside the ribs, as well as what and old style sender looks like taken apart. Still looking for a pair of access panels for the middle covers. 

[Marauder]

I've little to add to Terry's adventure other than what the new fuel caps will look like when he installs his. That PRC stuff was made by the devil himself.

I like the looks of the new caps, the locking feature and the 1 lb. in weight savings.




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[N6758N]

Progress is excruciatingly slow. I have been a busy guy with house projects and friends/family visiting. I managed to get all the fuels bags in and the tubes connected, with the foam underneath, I put my brother to work when he was visiting last weekend. The new vents and anti-ice masts are installed. Fuel senders went in yesterday along with the sump drains. Getting closer. That's all for today folks, you can go back to arguing about touch and goes now...

 

[carusoam]

Before you close up...

Will you be Pre-emptively putting in wires for things like strobe lights or AOAi or or wing mounted taxi or landing light or a GoPro camera or anything else?

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Just now, carusoam said:

Before you close up...

Will you be Pre-emptively putting in wires for things like strobe lights or AOAi or or wing mounted taxi or landing light or a GoPro camera or anything else?

Best regards,

-a-

At this point, my guess Terry wants to close the patient and roll them to recovery!

[carusoam]

Some important thing will inevitably come up, right as the last inspection panel gets closed in place... 

That was everything I could think of to keep it from happening.

Best regards,

-a-

[N6758N]

On 9/19/2017 at 5:02 PM, carusoam said:

Before you close up...

Will you be Pre-emptively putting in wires for things like strobe lights or AOAi or or wing mounted taxi or landing light or a GoPro camera or anything else?

Best regards,

-a-

Not right now, I need to take a break from mods/upgrades for a while. Being a homeowner means no more money for airplane stuff. I got the fuel caps on this weekend. Senders are wired up and connected to the JPI. Thanks to @Marauder for supplying the awesome connectors we used. The new fuel caps are really nice, and they look fantastic. In fact, they look like they don't even belong on a 50 year old airplane. I'll surely have to repaint after this to match.

I am waiting on bolts and spring washers for the close out panels, then its time to add fuel, calibrate the JPI, and check for leaks. OH, and then I have to tear the rest of the plane apart to do the annual...

 

[N6758N]

Here's another lame post documenting the bladder install. For the record, I do not use flaps on takeoff, I fly ROP, and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn express last night. 

Yesterday was a big day- finally put fuel in the bladders, I'm happy to report there are no leaks yet. I successfully calibrated the senders which was a breeze, especially compared to the installation. I am waiting on the two middle access panels from @Alan Fox and then  I will be done with the tanks. This turned out to be a much more involved than originally though. Griggs customer service is fantastic and they were always there when I needed a small part or some technical advice. If anyone is curious, I managed to squeeze just over 25 gallons a side in after unuseable fuel was put in, but I am hoping once the bladders move around and the creases come out, I will able to get another gallon or so per side in. Now I have to finish the annual, install new carpet, and go try it out!

 

[jetdriven]

Mine may barely hold 54 gallons. I'd like to know how the useable fuel capacity didn't change with the addition of the foam under the cells. That takes up volume. 

[N6758N]

14 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Mine may barely hold 54 gallons. I'd like to know how the useable fuel capacity didn't change with the addition of the foam under the cells. That takes up volume. 

Are you referring to the AD that added the piece of foam in the middle bay, or all the other pieces that are part of the kit? There is still space in the tank cavity for the bladder to move, even with the added foam piece. IIRC, that was added to help the fuel in that part of the tank be useable. They are supposed to be 57.3 gallons total with unuseable included, so it seems we are all 3-5 gallons shy of that number. 

[jetdriven]

That's significant. If you're planning on 54.7 usable (IMO not quite enough for this airframe) and it only holds 52 then you plan on landing with  10 gallons which is a totally reasonable number, and you only really have 7 which is cutting it awful close. And all that being said you're only flying for four hours which is 600 nautical miles that's not very far either. Fast speedy  airplane but you have to stop for fuel which means it's slower and takes more fuel than a slower and less efficient airplane.  

Edited October 3, 2017 by jetdriven

[Marauder]

11 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That's significant. If you're planning on 54.7 usable (IMO not quite enough for this airframe) and it only holds 52 then you plan on landing with  10 gallons which is a totally reasonable number, and you only really have 7 which is cutting it awful close. And all that being said you're only flying for four hours which is 600 nautical miles that's not very far either. Fast speedy  airplane but you have to stop for fuel which means it's slower and takes more fuel than a slower and less efficient airplane.  

It is significant and troubling since I had been flying for years with the assumption I had 54.7 gallons of usable fuel on board. I would never cut it that close (my 50 gallons actual versus the 54.7 claimed) but knowing what is really there was sobering. 

[N6758N]

If you do the math, we are missing close to 5 gallons useable which equates to 30-40 minutes of time at cruise, pretty significant and could be the difference between making it or losing the engine if you ever had tried cutting it close..

[N6758N]

Walked back into the Hangar last night after being away for 10 days....and no leaks! Got the middle access closeout panels courtesy of @Alan Fox and tried to find the closest matching white paint to match them. Obviously I need to repaint the other ones a less off white color. Hoping to finish the annual and fly it in time to make the First E model death party on Oct 21st.