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Terrible Two's


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So, yesterday decided to fly.  Airplane needed exercise as did my lack of aviating in over two weeks.  On takeoff I had a weird combination that COULD of been disasterous if I didn't fly the airplane.  My co-owner had flown previously and I know he messes with trim, but don't know what exactly he does.  Anyway, I rolled nose up trim to what I thought was take-off position in sight window.  (Not so much).  Plane was really squirrelly at 75mph (my lift off speed with take off flaps (two pumps).  When I rotated I knew immediately trim was %$^%$D.  Gained some altitude (pulling hard) and of course unbuckled my seatbelt and got it stuck in Johnson bar...^%$#(Have not done that in....forever.). Decided to sort gear AFTER quickly rolling nose up trim and then retracted gear.  I would be lying if I didn't say it was Mr. Toad's wild ride for a few seconds...Glad none on board to experience that.  Also glad not heavy with fuel (21 gallons on board for short flight to fuel) and "stuff" people and gear.

I put this squarely into stupid pilot tricks that were 100% avoidable.  The trim or bar independently are an annoyance.  Together they could be an accident down low.

Be safe.

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If your trim indicator isn't working, you need to get that fixed. It is a simple mechanism and there is no reason for it to be broken or inaccurate. The cable is accessible in the belly and nose wheel well.

To adjust it, do a couple of takeoffs and find the happy takeoff trim. Find how far up or down from the takeoff mark and adjust the indicator so it is in the right place. 

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My first solo flight in my Mooney at heavily trafficked PDK, my chart (remember them?) fell between the seats on rotation.  Fun to sort out.

Even funnier is when somehow my CFI got his sunglasses tied up in the bar mechanism.  When I went to retract the gear the next flight those stupid things got under the bar such that I couldn't lock it.  Fun times.

The bar can create safety hazards if you aren't cautious, but it won't break.  Wouldn't have it any other way. I bought the Mooney I did because of that bar and I love it, despite it faults.

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22 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

If your trim indicator isn't working, you need to get that fixed. It is a simple mechanism and there is no reason for it to be broken or inaccurate. The cable is accessible in the belly and nose wheel well.

To adjust it, do a couple of takeoffs and find the happy takeoff trim. Find how far up or down from the takeoff mark and adjust the indicator so it is in the right place. 

So my co-owner just isn't flying really at all without me in the plane too.  I knew he had flown the plane and overthought the trim.  In retrospect I think he  rolls trim PRIOR to flying NOT after.  I have hundreds of T/O's in this plane.  I don't "site window" the trim because it only requires minor trim after I land it for next take-off.  I decided to manipulate the trim "into what I thought was T/O position" and it was clearly NOT.  Way to much nose down trim applied by ME prior to flight.  I will try the 6-7 turns method from stop and see how that "looks in the sight window" vs. how it performs on take-off.  My primary message is: Don't be a test pilot for no good reason and without knowing you are doing so.  AND don't compound your goofiness with another dumb pilot move (unbuckling belt and blocking J-Bar.

Anybody check the trim window religiously that can describe "what sight picture should be" when looking at window vs. detent?

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5 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

So my co-owner just isn't flying really at all without me in the plane too.  I knew he had flown the plane and overthought the trim.  In retrospect I think he  rolls trim PRIOR to flying NOT after.  I have hundreds of T/O's in this plane.  I don't "site window" the trim because it only requires minor trim after I land it for next take-off.  I decided to manipulate the trim "into what I thought was T/O position" and it was clearly NOT.  Way to much nose down trim applied by ME prior to flight.  I will try the 6-7 turns method from stop and see how that "looks in the sight window" vs. how it performs on take-off.  My primary message is: Don't be a test pilot for no good reason and without knowing you are doing so.  AND don't compound your goofiness with another dumb pilot move (unbuckling belt and blocking J-Bar.

Anybody check the trim window religiously that can describe "what sight picture should be" when looking at window vs. detent?

The trim should be in the takeoff position. The little window is very accurate. You may find you like it a little above the takeoff position or a little below. That's OK but you should be putting it the same place every time. doing it by a certain number of wheel spins is not very accurate. That's why Mooney put the little window.

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In my C, when flying light, I set the bottom of the Trim indicator at the top of the Takeoff line; when heavy, I line it up pretty good; near gross, it's lined up well and I use Takeoff Flaps by the stripe on that indicator.

The only time I've purposely run the trim all the way to either end was while transitioning, on the ground with the engine not running, and I got out to see how far the tail moved in each direction. It's a lot of turning from one extreme to the other! 

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I adjust mine for a comfortable 80 mph rotation.  Much faster than that and I start to have trouble retracting the gear.  Once the gear and flaps are up I re-trim to a 100-120 mph climb.  I've yet to look at the trim position after landing to compare it to take off, but the Mooney is certainly a trim happy airplane.  I can't land it without, after the flaps come down the stick forces are more than I can actually manage.

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11 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

How much adjustment are you making after a landing to position for next take-off?  I am guessing not much based on all my flying with no trim wheel adjustment prior to take-off and minor adjustment to set for 120MPH indicated climb.

Sometime recently I took pictures and posted them here:  trim position at takeoff and after landing. They are very close to each other.

But then again, I climb at Vy, 100 MPHi in my C. 

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5 hours ago, steingar said:

I adjust mine for a comfortable 80 mph rotation.  Much faster than that and I start to have trouble retracting the gear.  Once the gear and flaps are up I re-trim to a 100-120 mph climb.  I've yet to look at the trim position after landing to compare it to take off, but the Mooney is certainly a trim happy airplane.  I can't land it without, after the flaps come down the stick forces are more than I can actually manage.

I am right on with what you are saying.  I roll a lot of trim in after applying full flaps and would not want to try and land without doing so.  I never look at window either so know that what I thought was proper is not.  My POH does not have a good photo of window/detent/what it should look like.  You are looking down at it so not really intuitive for me.  Yes indeed the Mooney is very sensitive/requires a deft trim hand.  Early and often, but once there....ahhhhhhhhhh, nice.

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15 minutes ago, Hank said:

Sometime recently I took pictures and posted them here:  trim position at takeoff and after landing. They are very close to each other.

But then again, I climb at Vy, 100 MPHi in my C. 

Do you remember thread Hank?

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3 hours ago, Hank said:

Wow, longer ago than I thought:  

May have to revisit that thread for a refresher.

You have a different (Nicer) trim and flap indicator than I do in my '66.  Thanks for taking the time.  I float like crazy in the summer when single pilot.  Hmmmmm, maybe I need to rethink the full flap landings when solo and light.  I did not use takeoff flaps or flaps on landing for first several years of ownership, but was a convert due to Mooneyspace.  I think Bonai is still mad at me for teasing him on the full flaps landing in that thread....

;)

 

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14 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

You have a different (Nicer) trim and flap indicator than I do in my '66.  Thanks for taking the time.  I float like crazy in the summer when single pilot.  Hmmmmm, maybe I need to rethink the full flap landings when solo and light.  I did not use takeoff flaps or flaps on landing for first several years of ownership, but was a convert due to Mooneyspace.  I think Bonai is still mad at me for teasing him on the full flaps landing in that thread....

;)

 

Nope wasn't mad then and forgot all about it. What I am mad about is that Mooney flaps don't give me as much drag and braking like I was getting with my Cessnas 40 degree Fowler flaps with those things full down and a heavy flare that damn thing would practically stop mid air and drop onto the runway. Nice to be thought of now and then.

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You don't really want your Mooney to fly like a Cessna! All that drag, none if that speed . . .

Our flaps don't go to 40°, either. Full flaps, full prop, idle throttle; if that's not enough, slip a little and you'll settle down. Or raise flaps if you're in ground effect.  ;)

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9 hours ago, bonal said:

Nope wasn't mad then and forgot all about it. What I am mad about is that Mooney flaps don't give me as much drag and braking like I was getting with my Cessnas 40 degree Fowler flaps with those things full down and a heavy flare that damn thing would practically stop mid air and drop onto the runway. Nice to be thought of now and then.

Yeah, the Mooney flaps don't really do that much when compared to the flaps of your average trainer.  Mostly they lower the pitch angle so you can see the runway over the nose.  Edit...so I can see the runway over the nose.  Those of you less vertically challenged probably have fewer problems in this regard.

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On 8/23/2017 at 11:05 PM, bonal said:

Nope wasn't mad then and forgot all about it. What I am mad about is that Mooney flaps don't give me as much drag and braking like I was getting with my Cessnas 40 degree Fowler flaps with those things full down and a heavy flare that damn thing would practically stop mid air and drop onto the runway. Nice to be thought of now and then.

Teasing then and now :)

 

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