CiES Fuel Senders Resource Thread

[N6758N]

8 hours ago, fuellevel said:

Hey any updates here. The phone calls for tech support ended a few weeks ago. What is the latest


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Lets see here...

@Marauders plane is done. I think he has only flown it 2-3 times so far though so stay tuned for an update. Once we ran the new harness provided by JPI, things went relatively smooth form there, save for the fact that they rewired his JPI backwards so we had to swap out two plugs to make the system work, Oh and we had to reprogram the JPI to acknowledge we were using frequency type senders. The calibration went pretty smoothly after that (lots of trips to the fuel farm with gas cans since N57 doesn't have a truck. I put my senders in last week, and wired them this weekend, once my bladders are complete I will turn everything on and do the calibration. Lets just say we have all learned a lot getting through this process, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. All in all I still think the technology in these senders is fantastic and will provide years of trouble free and reliable fuel readings. That being said though, Scott, @fuellevel I would recommend changing the install manual or at least mentioning it on the  aircraft specific models page of your webpage, a few things:

1. This setup does not work with frequency type without a new JPI harness and sending the unit back to JPI at a cost of $350. 

2. There was no mention when we purchased these that there were different types of senders, would have been nice to know this before we blindly purchased something and wound up having to do more work and spend more money to make everything work together. 

3. Your installation manual leaves a lot to be desired, more details and diagrams would save others some of the same headache we have gone through here. Remember, we aren't all installing these in a Cirrus. 

[fuellevel]

1. This setup does not work with frequency type without a new JPI harness and sending the unit back to JPI at a cost of $350. 

This has been a moving target as the charge was $200 prior to OSH17 and we didn't get a notification from JPI.   I believe they charge similarly for new JPI's ordered specifically for our sender 

2. There was no mention when we purchased these that there were different types of senders, would have been nice to know this before we blindly purchased something and wound up having to do more work and spend more money to make everything work together. 

I saw this before and we are working to make that as obvious as we possibly can.  I typically mention that the Analog senders are future proofed in that you can always upgrade to digital in the future, typically mentioning that the blue wire exists on all senders we produce.   Upgrade is then merely a wire swap.    I heard clearly that you didn't receive that message.  

3. Your installation manual leaves a lot to be desired, more details and diagrams would save others some of the same headache we have gone through here. Remember, we aren't all installing these in a Cirrus. 

Yes it does, I agree  - I have two customers and one of them gets to edit the manual.   These customers are the aviation consumer and the FAA.    In doing certification for this project I had to convince the FAA that this was a simple project worthy of a similar type manual that is utilized by the JPI's,  EI's of the world where two paragraphs suffice for the fuel quantity system.  So now that I have the STC - I can be more specific and that was the reason for my post this morning,   I was waiting for the insights you both found on installation and then I can incorporate them as a separate FAA approved document on the AML     Remember however that the FAA can edit or completely reject what we provide and we both will be the worse off for it.   But I do want to see your comments and illustrations 

 

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, fuellevel said:

1. This setup does not work with frequency type without a new JPI harness and sending the unit back to JPI at a cost of $350. 

This has been a moving target as the charge was $200 prior to OSH17 and we didn't get a notification from JPI.   I believe they charge similarly for new JPI's ordered specifically for our sender 

2. There was no mention when we purchased these that there were different types of senders, would have been nice to know this before we blindly purchased something and wound up having to do more work and spend more money to make everything work together. 

I saw this before and we are working to make that as obvious as we possibly can.  I typically mention that the Analog senders are future proofed in that you can always upgrade to digital in the future, typically mentioning that the blue wire exists on all senders we produce.   Upgrade is then merely a wire swap.    I heard clearly that you didn't receive that message.  

3. Your installation manual leaves a lot to be desired, more details and diagrams would save others some of the same headache we have gone through here. Remember, we aren't all installing these in a Cirrus. 

Yes it does, I agree  - I have two customers and one of them gets to edit the manual.   These customers are the aviation consumer and the FAA.    In doing certification for this project I had to convince the FAA that this was a simple project worthy of a similar type manual that is utilized by the JPI's,  EI's of the world where two paragraphs suffice for the fuel quantity system.  So now that I have the STC - I can be more specific and that was the reason for my post this morning,   I was waiting for the insights you both found on installation and then I can incorporate them as a separate FAA approved document on the AML     Remember however that the FAA can edit or completely reject what we provide and we both will be the worse off for it.   But I do want to see your comments and illustrations 

 

Scott -- I have been traveling a bit lately but will do a full write-up of the installation for the 54 gallon Mooney bladder system. Until I write this up, I do have a few recommendations that might help potential customers and those who have purchased.

1) Ordering guide. I filled out your order form without really understanding what I was buying. I think a basic ordering guide with the different options available (with pictures) to help a customer either buy what they want or confirm they got what they need. As you might recall, when I sent you pictures, you said I had the wrong senders. You sent me a new set of senders but I also still had a set of senders with the gray wires that weren't needed. The ordering guide can be a simple matrix that shows the required senders for bladder, non-bladder & 2 and 4 sender Mooneys and the corresponding steps needed to support the installation (ex. need to send the JPI back for recalibration, new firmware and a wiring bundle to operate in frequency mode).

2) Installation hint and troubling shooting guide. Having spent time with you on the phone, I know you have been exposed to the challenges some of us had completing the installation. I would just summarize things you have learned from your interactions with your customers and publish those on your website so customers can self address them before they need to call you (BTW -- I do appreciate your willingness to give out your cell phone number and making yourself available for questions). I would include things whether or not they are directly related to your product. An example is what Terry and I uncovered on my last phone call to you. We were trying to calibrate the unit only to see the numbers varying endlessly. Turns out that the JPI was not set to "frequency" mode. I had you on one line, while Terry had JPI on the other phone. Without knowing specifically what was causing the issue, we reached out to both of the companies involved. We also uncovered that JPI has mislabeled the J connectors between the primary and aux fuel senders. Knowing this was a possibility is helping Terry make sure his unit isn't also labeled incorrectly. Posting these online just streamlines the installation process.

A short summary of the final installation observations;

> Mooney bladder systems do NOT hold 54.8 usable. We meticulously leveled my plane to make sure we were calibrating the plane in a "flight" configuration. This meant we were able to add 52 gallons (not the claimed 54.8) gallons. The problem is that when you normally fill up (and I think this is probably true of wet wings as well), the plane will be a few degrees nose high and as a result, the best I could add was 50 gallons -- the good news is that my fill ups have been "off" roughly 2 gallons. Exactly the same as what I can't get in the plane when filling up with the nose slightly high.

> No more "Fuel Mismatch" error messages on the JPI with the new senders. One of the problems with the original resistive senders is I would periodically get this error message. It happened on the last flight before the senders were installed. I had burned down the fuel to 5 gallons per side. When I was taxiing in, I showed 24 gallons on one tank and then got the error. So far, so good.

> JPI told us to ground the senders to the chassis. We decided to leave my final electrical connector work intact and leave the senders (black wire on the senders) grounded back on the JPI harness. Works great. The senders still need to be grounded to the chassis to meet the installation requirements for grounding the actual sender (not the electronics).

> Stable fuel readings. With the old senders, I would periodically see a few gallons fluctuations with the displayed value. These are remaining rock solid and linear.

When I get more time, I will post some pictures of the installed senders (including the mounting of them upside down (another installation hint).

[MIm20c]

@Marauder good info about the discrepancy between filling a leveled plane and one that is on the ramp. Did you evenly space out the calibration points?  Did you fine the results linear with reference to both individual sensors and the crossover between them?

[Marauder]

Just now, MIm20c said:

@Marauder good info about the discrepancy between filling a leveled plane and one that is on the ramp. Did you evenly space out the calibration points?  Did you fine the results linear with reference to both individual sensors and the crossover between them?

The calibration process takes the average of the 2 senders on each side and presents a value. The calibration numbers were rock solid when we kept adding the fuel for the data points. And I mean rock solid. I think we had one number that moved a couple of times between 54 and 53, but all of the other data points didn't move. The numbers aren't exactly linear as you see in Terry's chicken scratch handwriting below, but I think the real test is the actual amount you can see on the JPI gauge after landing and how much fuel you can stick in. We will change the top level to 50 gallons to reflect what we can get in them in a real world. Based on the numbers I am seeing on fill-ups, we are talking about 0.5 gallon accuracy (or less) -- and I had a couple of 20+ gallon fill-ups. My k factor on the fuel totalizer is a bit more accurate, but for fuel gauges, you can't beat knowing down to 0.5 gallons (or less) what you have available.

[N6758N]

Now the whole world has seen my awful penmanship. 

[carusoam]

Yep, the whole Mooney world is watching...  

Best regards,

-a-

[Spurious Moppet]

I'm putting in an EDM 900 along with CiES senders next month. I've been following this and the other thread about the teething problems.

I have the O&N 57.3-gallon bladders in my E and like some of the others I have right around 52 gallons usable. I ordered the frequency output senders and specified CiES frequency sender setup for the EDM 900 as well.

Is there any other gouge out there from the recent installs that hasn't been posted yet?

Also, if anyone is in need of steam gauges for an E, my old engine gauges should be available in about a month. Also a UBG-16 and FP-5L. I'll post on the avionics for sale page when they are out.

[N6758N]

I finally put fuel back in my airplane this weekend after installing the new senders (and bladders). The calibration went very smoothly. You can really tell how rock solid these things are, I got consistent even numbers on both sides all the way up from empty to full. I am excited to fly behind them and see how they respond to fuel burn. Here are some key points to anyone looking to install them.

-Make sure you know what type of senders you are buying as there are more than one option

-Make sure JPI knows this when you send the unit back to them, and FYI after you get you EDM back, you will still have to change the programming to accept Frequency, and they also wire the J6 fuel quanity plug backwards, so you will have to plug into the aux one instead. The grounds for the senders must go all the way back to the JPI (use the harness they provide) in order for everything to work. I recommend attaching the power wire to you engine monitor circuit breaker and labeling accordingly. 

[carusoam]

Terry,

will you be able to post pictures of the fuel totalizer vs the Cies Fuel level readings?

I am looking forward to seeing how well this works. Should be the same data from two independent sources.

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Terry,

will you be able to post pictures of the fuel totalizer vs the Cies Fuel level readings?

I am looking forward to seeing how well this works. Should be the same data from two independent sources.

Best regards,

-a-

Anthony -- I have 5 fill-ups recorded since I installed these. Once you get the actual amount of fuel in the tank right, the accuracy is very high but limited due to the reporting form factor on the JPI - the gauges on the JPI report in whole numbers. On my last flight, I noted the totalizer showed I burned 14.6 gallons, actual amount put into the plane was 14.4. The right tank showed I burned 8 gallons and left tank 7 gallons. So, it may be off 0.6 gallons across 2 tanks. Much better than the old style senders.

[Bob_Belville]

I was lucky enough to win a set of CiES senders at Mooney Summit and I am seriously considering getting the 10 gallon add on bladders to install at annual which is February. By that time I expect that Scott and JPI, with input from Marauder and several others here, will have the install details down pat. 

(My right fuel gauge seems to be stuck again, I burned 12+ gallons out of that tank yesterday and it is reading full.)

[Marauder]

3 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I was lucky enough to win a set of CiES senders at Mooney Summit and I am seriously considering getting the 10 gallon add on bladders to install at annual which is February. By that time I expect that Scott and JPI, with input from Marauder and several others here, will have the install details down pat. 

(My right fuel gauge seems to be stuck again, I burned 12+ gallons out of that tank yesterday and it is reading full.)

Congratulations Bob! When you say a "set" are you talking about 2 or 4 senders? On your E, you probably only have 2 senders. With 64 gallons, you may want to consider the outboard two senders being added. I think on the 54.8 system it probably isn't a big deal (Terry and I both have the 54.8 bladders. He has 2 senders and I have 4). Hopefully he will report back on his experience with the 2 senders.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I was lucky enough to win a set of CiES senders at Mooney Summit and I am seriously considering getting the 10 gallon add on bladders to install at annual which is February. By that time I expect that Scott and JPI, with input from Marauder and several others here, will have the install details down pat. 

(My right fuel gauge seems to be stuck again, I burned 12+ gallons out of that tank yesterday and it is reading full.)

Your generosity pays off once again Mr. Bob!

[Bob - S50]

On 10/4/2017 at 11:23 PM, carusoam said:

Terry,

will you be able to post pictures of the fuel totalizer vs the Cies Fuel level readings?

I am looking forward to seeing how well this works. Should be the same data from two independent sources.

Best regards,

-a-

I don't have pictures, but I have a several flights now since we had the Cies floats installed.  Since I have to program the EDM730 with fuel on board by adding fuel there is always a small difference between it and the fuel gauges when I first start up.  However, once I note that difference, it stays within 1 gallon of the same for the entire flight.  And who is to say which is off?  Personally I tend to trust the gauges more than the totalizer now since the K factor may not be set exactly right on the EDM730.

Also, we did calibrate the gauge with the plane on jacks to get it in a level flight attitude.  After that we put it back on the ground and transferred a gallon at time from a full wing to an empty wing and noted the reading.  In all cases, even sitting on the ground, indicated fuel was within .5 gallons of actual fuel so there was no need to create a conversion chart.

As you turn off the runway fuel moves around due to inertia and gives false readings.  However, after I've taxied straight for a couple minutes, the fuel indicated is within .5 gallons of what our calibrated stick says after parking.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Bob - S50
grammar

[Bob_Belville]

Congratulations Bob! When you say a "set" are you talking about 2 or 4 senders? On your E, you probably only have 2 senders. With 64 gallons, you may want to consider the outboard two senders being added. I think on the 54.8 system it probably isn't a big deal (Terry and I both have the 54.8 bladders. He has 2 senders and I have 4). Hopefully he will report back on his experience with the 2 senders.

I have 2 conventional senders now and assumed that I should go to 4 if I add the 10 gallon bladders (5 gallons per side). Scott's donation is a "set" which is 2 or 4 as needed.

BTW, do you know anything about the installation of the add on cells? I suppose the connection to the existing cells will require fittings of some sort...

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[Bob_Belville]

Your generosity pays off once again Mr. Bob!

Mike, I get a lot more out of Summit than I pay in thanks to the Elliotts, the Dubins and the good folks y'all bring to the party!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have 2 conventional senders now and assumed that I should go to 4 if I add the 10 gallon bladders (5 gallons per side). Scott's donation is a "set" which is 2 or 4 as needed.

BTW, do you know anything about the installation of the add on cells? I suppose the connection to the existing cells will require fittings of some sort...

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

I suspect it is not for the faint of heart. Will require going into the last bay.  It will include more holes being drilled 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I suspect it is not for the faint of heart. Will require going into the last bay.  It will include more holes being drilled 

Maybe I should let Griggs do it...

[N6758N]

On 10/5/2017 at 6:39 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Maybe I should let Griggs do it...

I'm not positive but I believe it would involve replacing both the existing outboard bladder as well as adding a new bladder and adding a few holes in the outboard rib. I'm curious if the fuel cap location would be changed or not. Maybe next time I am in AVL I will put them in for you . I drove through Morganton on the way to visit family last Wednesday and was thinking about you Bob!

[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, N6758N said:

I'm not positive but I believe it would involve replacing both the existing outboard bladder as well as adding a new bladder and adding a few holes in the outboard rib. I'm curious if the fuel cap location would be changed or not. Maybe next time I am in AVL I will put them in for you . I drove through Morganton on the way to visit family last Wednesday and was thinking about you Bob!

Do stop by! 

It makes sense that the cell that' hoing to be adjacent to the new one might have to be replaced with one with connection(s) for the new one. I'm going to talk to Griggs, Lynn would like to see the installation procedures before he agrees to do it here vs. taking it to PA. 

My intention would be to treat my old E to a new paint job after this mod and @Sabremech's cowl.

[N6758N]

43 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Do stop by! 

It makes sense that the cell that' hoing to be adjacent to the new one might have to be replaced with one with connection(s) for the new one. I'm going to talk to Griggs, Lynn would like to see the installation procedures before he agrees to do it here vs. taking it to PA. 

My intention would be to treat my old E to a new paint job after this mod and @Sabremech's cowl.

I will definitely do that next time, unfortunately it was 10pm and we had been driving all day, next time we will be in the Mooney! I think @Marauder will be in the same spot as you and will paint Vic after the cowling mod. Please feel free to contact me with any questions regarding the CiES installation, I feel like Chris' and I are experts now. I will PM you my cell phone number. 

[Marauder]

Sorry for not updating this thread sooner. Some additional information for those installing these:

Theoretical Time to Install (We all know how this works):

1 hour to drain the tanks through the sumps. You will need to fly down the tanks as low as you feel comfortable and then buy enough gas cans to hold the remaining fuel. Draining the fuel is done through the sumps. They are removable (may be safetied wire on). Find a wide mouth funnel and gas cans that can fit under your wings. Be prepared to jam your finger in the sump hole in order to switch gas cans. 

2 hours to remove the interior senders (need to remove part of the interior) and to remove the two exterior senders through the access panel. You will need access to the senders inside the plane. They are located between the front and rear seats.

Wing senders if you have 4 senders (usually found on 64 gallon systems):

4 hours to run new wires between the interior and external senders and to make the connections and install the senders. 

1 hour to run wires to the fuel gauges.

1.5 hours to calibrate the gauges (you need to add fuel in stages). You will need to level the plane as measured by the seam above the avionics bay access panel.

1 hour to reinstall your interior or if you are a crazy guy like me, 2 more hours to remove all of the interior to do an interior refurb.

Some helpful hints:

1) Make sure CiES has sent you the correct senders (i.e. frequency, resistive).  They will be installed upside down. You will need to understand which mode you will run in and this will affect whether or not you need to do anything with your fuel gauges or engine analyzer. I have a JPI 900 and ran in frequency mode. If you have a JPI and want to run in frequency mode, you will need to send the unit back to have the firmware updated and for them to provide you a wiring harness.

2) Pre-buy the stuff you're going to need. This includes;

- Pick up some three wire Tefzel wiring. Will make it much easier to run the wires.You'll need to run wires between the senders.

- Get some good quality tie wraps of various sizes, also get some anti-chaff material for running through the wing ribs. Here is a list of stuff.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ty-rap-cableties.php?clickkey=3036789

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/spiralwrap.php

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/edmotefzel.php

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/insulterms.php

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/grommetedging.php

- I did not use knife connectors for the connections to the senders. Instead I used these: 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/sealAllconnectors2.php?clickkey=10988

Some butt connectors to tie off any dead end wires from the old senders or anything else you find:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/redwirecaps.php

- Screws (1/2" & 5/8") & washers to attach the senders (get the different lengths to make sure if your senders require shorter or longer ones):

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/NAS1351.php

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/flatwashers.php

- Also check to make sure you have the connectors needed to connect to your fuel gauge.

The senders will be installed using their own rubber gaskets. You will need to run a ground wire from a sender screw (for each sender) to the airframe (this is a separate ground than the one run from the sender wires to the gauges). As mentioned earlier, the senders are installed upside down as compared to the labels on the sender. 

Hope this helps.

[N6758N]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The senders will be installed using their own rubber gaskets. You will need to run a ground wire from a sender screw (for each sender) to the airframe (this is a separate ground than the one run from the sender wires to the gauges). As mentioned earlier, the senders are installed upside down as compared to the labels on the sender. 

Great post, Chris. Two things I might add, the anodized coating on the sender bodies needs to be removed for the screw you use to ground to the airframe, and 2nd and most importantly, don't forget the 1 million dollar check to your local friendly IA. 

I'm glad we finally knocked these things out, it was a stressful, but fun project! Next up the oil cooler relocation? 

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, N6758N said:

Great post, Chris. Two things I might add, the anodized coating on the sender bodies needs to be removed for the screw you use to ground to the airframe, and 2nd and most importantly, don't forget the 1 million dollar check to your local friendly IA. 

I'm glad we finally knocked these things out, it was a stressful, but fun project! Next up the oil cooler relocation? 

Waiting to hear back from Matt on his cowl update. May be in the works. I have Bruce Jaegar coming out later this month to do my interior, might be a good time to pick his brains.