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Hmmm. According to the installation manual, the user can select which mode the sender operates in. Frequency, resistive or voltage. I'll call them tomorrow and get clarity. I did read the JPI is able to handle these as well, but as others have discovered, only if the firmware is correct.

0625d9bf4c2ce7e16d1984b16df5755a.png


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That's my understanding as well, my final wiring harness was actually wired so that we could swap from frequency to resistance mode very easily. Only because we were having so much trouble with frequency mode with no one fessing up till JPI took ownership.

Unless your firmware version is from this spring you will definitely need an update.


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OK, here are some tips from our install.  All problems were fixed with a quick call to Cies.  They always answered the phone so there was little or no delay. 1.  We used our existing resistance b

I was lucky enough to win a set of CiES senders at Mooney Summit and I am seriously considering getting the 10 gallon add on bladders to install at annual which is February. By that time I expect that

Hmm.   So because we study the issue in depth,  the method of failure for classic resistance fuel senders is a loosening of the pivot at the sender body.   this additional clearance needs to be accoun

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2 hours ago, kortopates said:


That's my understanding as well, my final wiring harness was actually wired so that we could swap from frequency to resistance mode very easily. Only because we were having so much trouble with frequency mode with no one fessing up till JPI took ownership.

Unless your firmware version is from this spring you will definitely need an update.


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We called JPI this evening. They are stating the EDM-900 needs to go back to them for a firmware AND a hardware update in order to work in frequency mode. There seems to be some confusion as previous people have mentioned its firmware only. Interesting. I am pretty disappointed as CiES told me at Oshkosh that my EDM-900 would not have to go back to JPI...If we decide to go the restive way then I think we will have to get different senders.

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I had the resistive senders from CiES (with the green wire) so my JPI EDM-900 had to go back for firmware but no hardware change. We pulled it and FedEx'd it to JPI on Monday and reinstalled it the next Monday. It's nice to have good/accurate gauges for once!

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I want to provide some more clarity to this resistive versus frequency conversation. I spoke to JPI yesterday in an attempt to get an answer to what firmware I needed. When I told them I was installing a CiES flow sender system, the tech guy sent me to the sales team. The woman I spoke with told me that she personally went up to the CiES booth at Oshkosh and informed them they needed to stop telling people if they had a JPI 900 or 930 they were good to go. This, along with the fact that if you did not know what you were buying from CiES, you could end up with senders set up for frequency or resistive (green wire senders) and trying to sort out what to do next.

I also spoke with Scott earlier in the week both verbally and through email over an issue with my senders not being labeled correctly and found out that I was sent the wrong inboard senders. CiES is stepping up to the plate and sending me the correct ones. Based on the conversation with Scott, I think he is struggling with all of the airframe differences that these senders can be installed in and I think if you buy these you will need to be patient as they get their documentation and processes nailed down. Based on feedback from those of you who have installed them -- if you want accurate fuel gauges, this is the way to go. It is just not a slam dunk to install them.

Now for the technical information for JPI 900/930s;

> Tim (name consented to be used) from JPI informed me that if you intend to run these units in frequency mode, you will need to send your JPI 900/930 back for both a firmware and a hardware change which includes a cable change. This will cost you $350.

> If you are intending on running resistive, you will need the green wire version of the sender and need the current firmware. The current firmware is 1.30.1029. Unless you purchased recently, you will most likely have dated firmware. To determine the firmware, go into the user setup and toggle through until you get to the "About" option. On the right is the "Info" button, push that and it will show you the operating software and firmware. Sorry, I didn't get a price from JPI for just firmware updates.

N6758N (Terry) and I are working up the parts list for the components to install these units in bladder equipped Mooneys. Once we get our parts list together, I will provide what we bought and update everyone on what went right and what went wrong.

For those of you who were personally involved in the installation of your units, I would appreciate a PM on potential gotchas. 

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2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I want to provide some more clarity to this resistive versus frequency conversation. I spoke to JPI yesterday in an attempt to get an answer to what firmware I needed. When I told them I was installing a CiES flow sender system, the tech guy sent me to the sales team. The woman I spoke with told me that she personally went up to the CiES booth at Oshkosh and informed them they needed to stop telling people if they had a JPI 900 or 930 they were good to go. This, along with the fact that if you did not know what you were buying from CiES, you could end up with senders set up for frequency or resistive (green wire senders) and trying to sort out what to do next.

I also spoke with Scott earlier in the week both verbally and through email over an issue with my senders not being labeled correctly and found out that I was sent the wrong inboard senders. CiES is stepping up to the plate and sending me the correct ones. Based on the conversation with Scott, I think he is struggling with all of the airframe differences that these senders can be installed in and I think if you buy these you will need to be patient as they get their documentation and processes nailed down. Based on feedback from those of you who have installed them -- if you want accurate fuel gauges, this is the way to go. It is just not a slam dunk to install them.

Now for the technical information for JPI 900/930s;

> Tim (name consented to be used) from JPI informed me that if you intend to run these units in frequency mode, you will need to send your JPI 900/930 back for both a firmware and a hardware change which includes a cable change. This will cost you $350.

> If you are intending on running resistive, you will need the green wire version of the sender and need the current firmware. The current firmware is 1.30.1029. Unless you purchased recently, you will most likely have dated firmware. To determine the firmware, go into the user setup and toggle through until you get to the "About" option. On the right is the "Info" button, push that and it will show you the operating software and firmware. Sorry, I didn't get a price from JPI for just firmware updates.

N6758N (Terry) and I are working up the parts list for the components to install these units in bladder equipped Mooneys. Once we get our parts list together, I will provide what we bought and update everyone on what went right and what went wrong.

For those of you who were personally involved in the installation of your units, I would appreciate a PM on potential gotchas. 

I installed the Resistive (green wire) senders. (The green wire is only on the inboard/master senders). And I have them hooked to my JPI EDM-900. What you have described is exactly what I experienced. Send the JPI back for a firmware update and you're good to go.

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Attachment - Mooneys are unique in allowing only 8-32 attachment  and  not 10-32 

this is dictated by the nutplates in the aircraft fuel tank.    MS27039 8-32 Screws and AN or MS washers are fine using the ferrules found on the existinging senders.   All fuel senders are drilled to 10-32 screw clearance that is the specification we all follow.    Basically you can re-use the existing mounting hardware.    Isolating the sender is bad lightning practice - be sure to burnish one hole 

I have the upgrade software for the JPI - the upgrade process is listed in the JPI manual.  If I remember with Paul K's unit I had a little trouble with this process.    That is why JPI recommends return to JPI for either conversion or a software upgrade. -   

So to be specific if you have a current software loaded - CiES is compatible with an existing  JPI 9XX. - in voltage mode green wire..    If your software is old it will need to be upgraded - a listed JPI process in the JPI install manual - i have the current JPI software and will pass it on.      - if you have to send the JPI In  - frequency mode or blue wire is best.   From what I was recently told (after OSH17)  - JPI charges the same for either conversion to frequency or software upgrade - subtlety letting you know frequency is best 

We are using 500 steps now in analog or voltage mode -  the resolution would not be detectable on a Mooney.     

Last year prior to the STC  we were using 120 steps - we moved to 500 steps for the Airbus A-star Helicopter 

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Just now, fuellevel said:

Attachment - some but not all Mooneys are unique in allowing only 8-32 attachment  and  not 10-32 

this is dictated by the nutplates in the aircraft fuel tank.    MS27039 8-32 Screws and AN or MS washers are fine using the ferrules found on the existinging senders.   All fuel senders are drilled to 10-32 screw clearance that is the specification we all follow.    Basically you can re-use the existing mounting hardware.    Isolating the sender is bad lightning practice - be sure to burnish one hole 

I have the upgrade software for the JPI - the upgrade process is listed in the JPI manual.  If I remember with Paul K's unit I had a little trouble with this process.    That is why JPI recommends return to JPI for either conversion or a software upgrade. -   

So to be specific if you have a current software loaded - CiES is compatible with an existing  JPI 9XX. - in voltage mode green wire..    If your software is old it will need to be upgraded - a listed JPI process in the JPI install manual - i have the current JPI software and will pass it on.      - if you have to send the JPI In  - frequency mode or blue wire is best.   From what I was recently told (after OSH17)  - JPI charges the same for either conversion to frequency or software upgrade - subtlety letting you know frequency is best 

We are using 500 steps now in analog or voltage mode -  the resolution would not be detectable on a Mooney.     

Last year prior to the STC  we were using 120 steps - we moved to 500 steps for the Airbus A-star Helicopter 

 

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12 minutes ago, fuellevel said:

 

So, to be clear, in order to work in blue wire (frequency) mode the EDM-900 MUST be sent back to JPI, correct? This is contradictory to what CiES told me and others at KOSH. I did not budget for this in my upgrade. If I had known this myself and @Marauder would have just ordered the green wire senders.  Nothing in aviation is easy or cheap...

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2 minutes ago, daver328 said:

I didn't install mine and was not present during the installation. So I can't help there.

I'm thinking much of the hardware, mostly anyways, from your current Senders will work?

Our AI and others on here have mentioned them sticking and having to give them a gentle bend to get them to move freely. 

We did send our JPI EDM-930 back to JPI for an update that allows it to talk to the CiES Senders in digital mode. They will work in analogue mode ... and our avionics shop decided, even after I directed the EDM-930 to be removed and sent to JPI, not to remove and return and to hook them up to run analogue. After we came to a better understanding, the EDM-930 was sent to JOI for the update. It took about two or three weeks and was $200 plus shipping.

David,

The issue seems to be that the analogue senders and the digital senders are two different parts. I don't think the blue wire (frequency ) senders can be used in analogue mode. Maybe CiES can confirm this? @fuellevel

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Analog green wire senders also have a blue wire. Analog senders can always output a digital signal in the future.

We have sort of a megalomaniacal stranglehold on this small niche of the aviation market and in the future of our making, frequency should replace resistance. The borg of Star Trek predicted correctly - resistance is futile


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37 minutes ago, fuellevel said:

Analog green wire senders also have a blue wire. Analog senders can always output a digital signal in the future.

We have sort of a megalomaniacal stranglehold on this small niche of the aviation market and in the future of our making, frequency should replace resistance. The borg of Star Trek predicted correctly - resistance is futile


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It would have been nice to know this before we ordered the blue wire only senders, thus requiring pulling the JPI and sending it out...

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@fuellevel, @Marauder @kortopates

Believe it or not I have a question I don't think has been covered here. :P

If I have to send my EDM 930 back to JPI now for other reasons and while they have the unit I have them make it ready for CiES' frequency mode senders and further if I plan to leave my old resistive senders in until my annual in February... will my old senders still work with the updated EDM in the interim? 

I suppose this is a question for JPI... I'm afraid I can guess the answer.

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30 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

@fuellevel, @Marauder @kortopates

Believe it or not I have a question I don't think has been covered here. :P

If I have to send my EDM 930 back to JPI now for other reasons and while they have the unit I have them make it ready for CiES' frequency mode senders and further if I plan to leave my old resistive senders in until my annual in February... will my old senders still work with the updated EDM in the interim? 

I suppose this is a question for JPI... I'm afraid I can guess the answer.

Sounds like you are getting new senders now ;) 

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50 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

@fuellevel, @Marauder @kortopates

Believe it or not I have a question I don't think has been covered here. :P

If I have to send my EDM 930 back to JPI now for other reasons and while they have the unit I have them make it ready for CiES' frequency mode senders and further if I plan to leave my old resistive senders in until my annual in February... will my old senders still work with the updated EDM in the interim? 

I suppose this is a question for JPI... I'm afraid I can guess the answer.

Hopefully the rest of us 'CiES' pioneers will pave the way and make it easy by the time you're ready to do it Bob. The only thing certain with these things is the uncertainty. 

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My plane is down for a week or so - fuel injection servo - so I could send JPI off to deal with a couple of issues having to do with data storage and download. They'd update the software and firmware while they had it.

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[mention=14420]fuellevel[/mention], [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] [mention=7862]kortopates[/mention]
Believe it or not I have a question I don't think has been covered here. [emoji14]
If I have to send my EDM 930 back to JPI now for other reasons and while they have the unit I have them make it ready for CiES' frequency mode senders and further if I plan to leave my old resistive senders in until my annual in February... will my old senders still work with the updated EDM in the interim? 
I suppose this is a question for JPI... I'm afraid I can guess the answer.


Bob - when I spoke with JPI they did not say converting to frequency mode would restrict it to frequency. I would check with them.


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For frequency mode, it took JPI a few iterations to get the firmware to work properly. The last fix I am aware of that is working for me wasn't till this spring. I think that's why many went with the resistive mode installs because of the issues JPI was having with the frequency mode. Oddly JPI had it working on the 930 much sooner than the 900 and I have no idea why the 900 gave them so many problems with the freq interface but it did. But to me, the big benefits of this technology was greater accuracy in fuel level based on the frequency mode use; so I don't understand the comment there is not much difference other than that all the dissatisfied 900 users having problems as JPI worked to provide updates. But I haven't worked with both kinds of installations either to really quantify the difference between resistance and frequency modes.

The screws for the senders, being smaller than the holes in the senders, require plastic tubular inserts to make up the size and seal. I'd recommend you build a test harness to ensure all works fine and you get stable outputs at the JPI - that could save a lot of trouble shooting time avoiding wiring issues after everything is installed. We had enough problems that in the end, my installer pulled the ground all way back to the cockpit as well as ground locally as shown in Scott's diagram; probably because Scott always would say make sure its adequately grounded when there was an issue.

You'll notice the Mooney outboard sensors have a big bend in them so as to not hit the front of the tank. The CIES outboard senders did not clear the front of the tank. To make sure exactly why we opened the tank from above (right above the sender) and bent the arm to clear the tank with about an inch of clearance. You can probably do that in the blind just repeatedly bending a little at a time - but we wanted to be sure. But also note our senders were installed upside down relative the CIES labeling. Maybe some of these things are no longer relevant if Scott has made changes to make the install more straightforward. 

Mine were installed in what Scott's instructions referred to as a master-slave wiring. I recommend using smaller gauge Deutch 20G connectors, here is 4 pin example off amazon  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01CUCA9GA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

Calibrating just takes a little time and JPI limit of 5 readings pretty much narrows down what you need to do. We started with the plane leveled and added the same amount of fuel to each side to keep it level. What I didn't quite expect is that it tool 2-3 minutes for the frequency output to stop changing - not in truly fluctuating way, but it would change by a number or 2 even after the first minute or so;  so suggest giving it a couple minutes to stabilize before you record the value. 

 

Paul - when you mentioned the big bend for the outboard senders. The attached picture contains 6 senders. CiES sent me another set stating that I had the wrong inboard senders. When I received them, I noticed all of my inboard and outboard senders are the same with the exception of the inboard having 4 wires. The two senders in yellow are the ones I am supposed to send back. Are these what the outboard senders supposed to look like? (Ones in yellow). If so, then I may still have the wrong senders.

 

eeff7e50bd96848c81d11b78cf8f89a0.jpg

 

 

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I'm sorry you guys are struggling through this but really appreciate you puzzling it all out. Now if only someone has an EI instead of JPI unit...


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3 hours ago, Marauder said:
 
Paul - when you mentioned the big bend for the outboard senders. The attached picture contains 6 senders. CiES sent me another set stating that I had the wrong inboard senders. When I received them, I noticed all of my inboard and outboard senders are the same with the exception of the inboard having 4 wires. The two senders in yellow are the ones I am supposed to send back. Are these what the outboard senders supposed to look like? (Ones in yellow). If so, then I may still have the wrong senders.
 
eeff7e50bd96848c81d11b78cf8f89a0.jpg
 
 
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Yes, the two senders in yellow look like my outboard senders. Your 4 inner senders labeled in green all look like inboard senders compared to mine. Here are some Picts of my senders.
72749ad8dff3f2d23157f27d670cd3c7.jpg
This shows a pair of senders with the outboard sender next to the Mooney outboard sender on top - before bending it to fit. Inboard is on bottom as has straight arm without bend, whereas outboard has bend. But notice how the OEM Mooney sender is angled to go further aft in the tank in order to fit yet the CIES outboard senders goes forward and therefore hits the front of the tank without adding a bend. 

4caf0c8a1db405e63092fb8a1c097e16.jpg
This picture shows the outboard sender installed looking down through the removed inspection cover. But with the bend moving it closer to the front of the tank rather than away, you can see why we needed to bend it aft (to the right in this picture of the left tank). It has about an 1/2 to 1" (from memory) clearance from the front wall of the tank. You can see from the picture why we removed the inspection panel to make sure it wouldn't hang up. At first I thought we had wrong senders since the arm on the outboard seemed to be in the opposite direction of what we needed. But Scott said they just needed to be bent aft a bit and you can see the small bend in the sender.

8d85d52bdc181ca2d916a2c3ebc02717.jpg

The last picture shows the installed outboard sensor and shows how it's installed upside down from the CIES labeling. But you can see with the 5 screw hole pattern its impossible to install them any other way.

I believe all 4 sensors had the same 3 wires. You can see them in the first photo.


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Yes, the two senders in yellow look like my outboard senders. Your 4 inner senders labeled in green all look like inboard senders compared to mine. Here are some Picts of my senders.
72749ad8dff3f2d23157f27d670cd3c7.jpg
This shows a pair of senders with the outboard sender next to the Mooney outboard sender on top - before bending it to fit. Inboard is on bottom as has straight arm without bend, whereas outboard has bend. But notice how the OEM Mooney sender is angled to go further aft in the tank in order to fit yet the CIES outboard senders goes forward and therefore hits the front of the tank without adding a bend. 

4caf0c8a1db405e63092fb8a1c097e16.jpg
This picture shows the outboard sender installed looking down through the removed inspection cover. But with the bend moving it closer to the front of the tank rather than away, you can see why we needed to bend it aft (to the right in this picture of the left tank). It has about an 1/2 to 1" (from memory) clearance from the front wall of the tank. You can see from the picture why we removed the inspection panel to make sure it wouldn't hang up. At first I thought we had wrong senders since the arm on the outboard seemed to be in the opposite direction of what we needed. But Scott said they just needed to be bent aft a bit and you can see the small bend in the sender.

8d85d52bdc181ca2d916a2c3ebc02717.jpg

The last picture shows the installed outboard sensor and shows how it's installed upside down from the CIES labeling. But you can see with the 5 screw hole pattern its impossible to install them any other way.

I believe all 4 sensors had the same 3 wires. You can see them in the first photo.


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Paul - thanks for the detailed response. If your senders all had 3 wires, something is amiss. It was my understanding that the inboards have 4 wires - red, black, blue and gray (when used for frequency mode) and the outboards were 3 wires - red, black and blue.

The picture of your outboard really helps. My short outboards (yellow ones in my picture) have 4 wires. They should have 3. And the yellow ones are the ones I am supposed to return.

This evening I will pull the factory outboards and confirm the bend design. Thanks for taking the time to write this up.


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Hum, I think I might just wait a few more months... :rolleyes:


Yep, my Spidey Sense was going off when I read the original thread on these senders but I did what I normally don't do. Buy the first year of ANYTHING!

I'm sure it will get sorted out, just frustrating that it wasn't done right the first time.


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Just now, Marauder said:

 


Yep, my Spidey Sense was going off when I read the original thread on these senders but I did what I normally don't do. Buy the first year of ANYTHING!

I'm sure it will get sorted out, just frustrating that it wasn't done right the first time.


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I once spent tens of thousands of dollars as a guinea pig for Eastman Company who was developing a new polyester resin for my "cultured marble" industry. I swore I'd never be the first again. I probably have not always properly honored my own vow. think @Sabremech, but I try.  

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