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CiES Fuel Senders Resource Thread


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Hello all.  I am very glad I found this topic here.  I am taking my 68 M20F to Griggs next week for bladder install due to some leaking in the right wing.  I was thinking that it was also the ideal time to upgrade the fuel sending units.  Initially I would still use my factory fuel gauges.  At a later date (when the wallet can support it after the cost of bladders) I want to put in a nice engine monitor primary gauge replacement.  Knowing that I wanted to use the digital signal with the engine monitor my initial thought was that I could not do this.  After reading all 7 pages I noticed that if I order the analog version of the senders they already have the wiring for the digital installed.  Basically they are both analog AND digital.
 
So just to be sure before I commit myself, I can purchase and have installed the analog senders to drive my factory gauges and when I install the engine monitor gauge replacement I can get the digital signal by using the blue wire instead of the green?  Can someone please confirm that this is correct?  Sounds like a no brainer to have the senders done when the bladders are installed as it would save on the labor of doing them separately.  Thanks for the help.


It has been a while since I did my installation. I don’t recall what the difference in senders is to make them operable in resistive versus frequency. I would call CiES up directly and speak with Scott to get the answer. There are different versions and I think it does matter which wire coding you select.


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7 hours ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Hello all.  I am very glad I found this topic here.  I am taking my 68 M20F to Griggs next week for bladder install due to some leaking in the right wing.  I was thinking that it was also the ideal time to upgrade the fuel sending units.  Initially I would still use my factory fuel gauges.  At a later date (when the wallet can support it after the cost of bladders) I want to put in a nice engine monitor primary gauge replacement.  Knowing that I wanted to use the digital signal with the engine monitor my initial thought was that I could not do this.  After reading all 7 pages I noticed that if I order the analog version of the senders they already have the wiring for the digital installed.  Basically they are both analog AND digital.

 

So just to be sure before I commit myself, I can purchase and have installed the analog senders to drive my factory gauges and when I install the engine monitor gauge replacement I can get the digital signal by using the blue wire instead of the green?  Can someone please confirm that this is correct?  Sounds like a no brainer to have the senders done when the bladders are installed as it would save on the labor of doing them separately.  Thanks for the help.

The following is from my 66 year old memory and I have been known to be wrong in the past, but...

The floats come with an output for both volts and frequency, you pick which one to use.  However, if you want to use your factory gauges, I think you have to do some testing to see how many volts it takes for your gauge to read empty, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full so Cies can map the output to your gauges.  In other words, it's a PITA.  However, you also have the option of buying a dedicated fuel gauge like the Aerospace Logic FL202 or FL202D for under $1000.  With those gauges, Cies does not need to map the output because you will calibrate the gauge to the float output rather than the other way around.  That's what we have.

Best of luck, but contact Cies before making your decision.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
4 minutes ago, fuellevel said:

just a nice little video in the machine shop 

Video

Any chance the fuel senders that are in the mail to me right now are being made in that video :D

 

Edited to add: they shipped out of Bend on 10/16.. being delivered on Monday!!!

Edited by smccray
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  • 3 months later...

A 930 isn’t in my budget yet. If I go with the Aerospace Logic (FL202D), what happens to the old fuel gauges in the “6 pack” cluster? Would they need to be placarded? Has anyone done this in a C/E/F without an engine monitor integration? Thanks for the help. 

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37 minutes ago, woodz said:

A 930 isn’t in my budget yet. If I go with the Aerospace Logic (FL202D), what happens to the old fuel gauges in the “6 pack” cluster? Would they need to be placarded? Has anyone done this in a C/E/F without an engine monitor integration? Thanks for the help. 

We did it with a J sort of.  We have an engine monitor but it is not certified primary.  We have the Aerospace Logic gauge and Cies floats.  The stock fuel gauges are disconnected and placarded INOP.  So are the fuel low level lights on our annunciator.

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  • 11 months later...

@Marauder  @fuellevel

I am filling out an order sheet below for a JPI-930 for a Mooney M20M (Bravo). 

How many Fuel Level Sending units on question 9?

How many Fuel Tanks one Question 10 (I have the Monroy Long Range Tanks STC)?

On question 11, I want CIES Frequency right?

Thanks!!

 

 

0F78CC70-B80F-49BB-B04B-7669F9F6268B.thumb.jpeg.91026ee7433499d44053fb51ce8802fb.jpeg

 

 

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You have four senders already... get four replacements...

Your existing senders are analog and are based on voltage/resistance relationships... go frequency to get that 0.1 gallon accuracy...

Any 930 can handle using frequency... it may take sending back to JPI to get it updated... Newer 930s in the field are field switchable between the two modes...
 

programming the JPI gallon by gallon (not exactly...) works for the oddities of tank shape and missing volumes... Ask fuellevel how this is done...

Good to see the owls up...
:)

Best regards,

-a-

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@LANCECASPER in 11 you want whatever senders you have; if you have CIES, they can be configured to be either frequency or voltage or resistive as well (so they work with original gauges).  See their approvals list - look for "Signal Output Options".

I believe the color of the signal wire is related to the signalling type, but cannot find a reference.

Found it - see the CIES STC Install Manual section 4.4.

Blue: FuelQty “OUT” in Hz

Green: FuelQty “OUT” (0-5V)

Purple: FuelQty “OUT” (0-280ohms)

 

Edited by tmo
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[mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]  [mention=14420]fuellevel[/mention]
I am filling out an order sheet below for a JPI-930 for a Mooney M20M (Bravo). 
How many Fuel Level Sending units on question 9?
How many Fuel Tanks one Question 10 (I have the Monroy Long Range Tanks STC)?
On question 11, I want CIES Frequency right?
Thanks!!
 
 
0F78CC70-B80F-49BB-B04B-7669F9F6268B.thumb.jpeg.91026ee7433499d44053fb51ce8802fb.jpeg
 
 


This may help you. It is the wiring diagram for the left inboard and left outboard senders. I have 4 CiES senders running in frequency mode. Few things to note.

1) The outboard sender’s blue wire connects to the gray wire for the inboard sender.

2) You will want to make sure you use the JPI provided harness and run the ground (black) and signal (blue) to the JPI’s wire (CiES black to JPI black and CiES blue to JPI’s white). The instructions provided by CiES at that time talked about grounding them to chassis only. That gave is sporadic readings. I believe the harness is for JPI’s P5 connector (it’ll be marked).

3) I also grounded the CiES senders to the chassis by attaching a wire from one of the attachment screws to the airframe (verify conductivity).

4) The biggest pain is running the wires from the outboard senders. Don’t be tempted to use the factory original wires. Get a good quality shielded wire (Aircraft Spruce sells them). - if you need numbers, let me know.

310514d22a54ac0aa1698449d2139374.jpgec105883a0e640e2b425f54afed19dd9.jpg

Don’t be too shocked that the CiES senders don’t look like the factory resistive senders. Just make sure when installed they have full range of motion.

b775d4b4dc391bfb2d634ceff253874a.jpg


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5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


This may help you. It is the wiring diagram for the left inboard and left outboard senders. I have 4 CiES senders running in frequency mode. Few things to note.

1) The outboard sender’s blue wire connects to the gray wire for the inboard sender.

2) You will want to make sure you use the JPI provided harness and run the ground (black) and signal (blue) to the JPI’s wire (CiES black to JPI black and CiES blue to JPI’s white). The instructions provided by CiES at that time talked about grounding them to chassis only. That gave is sporadic readings. I believe the harness is for JPI’s P5 connector (it’ll be marked).

3) I also grounded the CiES senders to the chassis by attaching a wire from one of the attachment screws to the airframe (verify conductivity).

4) The biggest pain is running the wires from the outboard senders. Don’t be tempted to use the factory original wires. Get a good quality shielded wire (Aircraft Spruce sells them). - if you need numbers, let me know.


Don’t be too shocked that the CiES senders don’t look like the factory resistive senders. Just make sure when installed they have full range of motion.
 

 

Thank you very much!

One more question - on the order sheet it asks:

2078200016_ScreenShot2020-01-20at8_38_51PM.thumb.png.563612ca9f7e980f44f640d98e749dc9.png

 

Do you know which adaptor it takes?

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Thank you very much!
One more question - on the order sheet it asks:
2078200016_ScreenShot2020-01-20at8_38_51PM.thumb.png.563612ca9f7e980f44f640d98e749dc9.png
 
Do you know which adaptor it takes?


You got me on that one. I didn’t install the 900 in my plane so I have no clue what fittings were used. I suspect one IAs or AP guys can answer that. Sorry.


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9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Thank you very much!

One more question - on the order sheet it asks:

2078200016_ScreenShot2020-01-20at8_38_51PM.thumb.png.563612ca9f7e980f44f640d98e749dc9.png

 

Do you know which adaptor it takes?

From the IPC item 12 the fuel pressure hose is a -4 and item 16 the reference hose is a -2 hose.  Not sure how JPI will work this one.

64CF7076-4D40-4938-8CB9-90152A08F1C8.jpeg

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1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

From the IPC item 12 the fuel pressure hose is a -4 and item 16 the reference hose is a -2 hose.  Not sure how JPI will work this one.

64CF7076-4D40-4938-8CB9-90152A08F1C8.jpeg

I was thinking that it was the oil pressure transducer they were referring to. In fact, in looking at the order sheet it must be since oil pressure is standard on all and you have to specify later if you need fuel pressure.

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Ok time to revive this extensive and useful thread after reading it over (sorry if I missed some critical details - it was long). Anyway, I picked up CiES senders from Oshkosh last summer, and the time has come to install them. I clearly should have read this thread first before going to the Oshkosh booth, so shame on me.  I was not told at the booth that there were digital (frequency?) and analog (resistive?) sender versions.  I have the digital (blue wire only, no green wire) version, so it appears my old JPI EDM900 (installed in 2015) must go back to JPI for new firmware, and I have to get a new harness. What a pointless source of additional downtime and install expense. I certainly would have preferred the analog version for mere $35 more per side, had I known that was the case.  

Any guidance at this point from folks like @Marauder and @fuellevel and others?  I'm gonna call JPI on Monday, but I want to make sure I tell them the right things.  I was told by someone that JPI has dropped the price to $100 for the firmware upgrade - it's a real shame that they can't just send a USB stick for it (or can they?).

Also I have the 54.8 usable/ 57.3 total capacity bladders, but it sounds like they really only hold about 52 gallons.  Not sure how that factors into the calibration procedure, but I don't want to suffer the delusion that I have more fuel than I do - that was kinda the point of doing this upgrade.  

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34 minutes ago, DXB said:

I have the digital (blue wire only, no green wire) version, so it appears my old JPI EDM900 (installed in 2015) must go back to JPI for new firmware, and I have to get a new harness. What a pointless source of additional downtime and install expense. I certainly would have preferred the analog version for mere $35 more per side, had I known that was the case.

The digital frequency is the more accurate sensor and therefore the best option to install. I personally wouldn't want to go to the expense to install another analog sensor. The harness option from JPI is a great deal - this will save you much more money than it cost in installation time and troubleshooting. You can thank us early adopters with all the problems we had as to why JPI provides this option to bypass a lot of issues from faulty grounds. (they learned the hard way that a ground line had to be wired back to the EDM unit) CIES didn't even provide a schematic for different wiring options. I do expect you'll have to return your EDM-900 to the factory to get the latest s/w for the digital senders.

Your concern for total capacity is a non-issue with respect to the senders. You'll calibrate them based on the actual amount of fuel you put in your tanks. But, completely independent of the sensors, your EDM indicate how many gallons remain in the tank which is only decremented by your fuel flow transducer, and setting that to Full will be based on your POH and STC for the bladders since its a TSO'd unit. (Your senders report the sensed fuel in each tank separately as a Left gallons and Right Gallons just like your old fuel gauges - separate from the fuel remaining).  But you can always decrement your 54.8 (useable) to 52 gallons if you want, but I don't think JPI will change the total usable too 52 for you, they have to follow the approved FAA data, i.e. your bladders STC data.

Edited by kortopates
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Dev,

If you haven’t selected a mechanic for the install...

You might consider talking with Terry.... he worked with @Marauder to install and troubleshoot back in the day...

Terry is also an MSer... but my memory isn’t being that helpful tonight... :) (based in Eastern PA?) @N6758N

Best regards,

-a-

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/31/2018 at 8:40 AM, Marauder said:

 


If you did not order the JPI 900 configured for the CiES frequency mode and want to run in that mode, you’ll need to send it back for the firmware revision that will support it. They will also provide you a cable with the proper end to plug into the JPI. It is buried under the options page on the Aircraft Spruce site:

bf135c8b64c61643c1f4544000ddd639.jpg

As for the connectors. I don’t recall what number they were P5 / P6? What the issue was that one is for primary fuel tanks and the other connector was for aux fuel tanks. Both Terry and my JPIs were labeled incorrectly. The wiring was correct, the labels were wrong. When we went to calibrate mine, there was no calibration numbers for the primary fuel tanks. Terry called JPI and they indicated it may have been labeled incorrectly. They were.


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I just had the same issue.  The connector labeled J6 didn't do anything, but I noticed in the calibration area that I was showing numbers in the aux section.  So I swapped plugs to J6A and all is good

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  • 1 year later...

I hate to take the lazy way out but can someone recommend a shop on the east coast that has done  the CiES Fuel Senders install so I can just take my M20R to them and let them worry about all of this?

Edited by dfurst
Reprimanded by carusoam :)
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Just now, dfurst said:

I hate to take the lazy way out but can someone recommend a shop on the east coast that has done this so I can just take my M20R in and let them worry about all of this?


This is going to be a fun exchange...

1) If you don’t define what ‘this’ is...

2) We can only guess what part of the thread you were reading when you started to type....

3) in a few more minutes... somebody will give answers related to the M20K that is in your avatar data... instead of the M20R in your post...

4) For the person that has the most experience installing the Cies digital floats in Mooneys...   That is probably Terry...   

5) Terry’s location is somewhere in PA, near NJ...

6) Byron is a really good Mooney mechanic/pilot/good guy and is close to the DC area...

 

Lets see if you can add some detail about what you really want...

If  I wanted to install Cies gauges in my M20R, I would connect them with my JPI900, and update a few things that go with that...  GPS, FF...

 

See if that helps any...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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“I was told by someone that JPI has dropped the price to $100 for the firmware upgrade - it's a real shame that they can't just send a USB stickfor it (or can they?).”

I doubt it. The critical data (redlines, hours, etc.) gets reinstalled and you have to make sure they get it right. I don’t think they farm that out. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks @carusoam .  I have updated the original post.  I guess I took "being lazy" a little too far, my fault.  I assumed that since we were in the "CiES Fuel Senders" thread it was obvious, but you are right, many tangents have happened so I should have been more clear.   Post updated.

Thanks for the recommendations of Terry and Byron.  I will reach out to them.

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