Too much plane... Plane gets ahead of new pilot... Etc...

[Capitalist]

At flight school the other day my instructor dropped subtle hints about some guy buying a cirrus and basically people buying planes that he believes are beyond their training. 

What are your thoughts on this? I always thought a Cirrus was a pretty mainstream airplane loaded with a lot of expensive goodies. It doesn't even have RG... It seems that the progression through airplanes can be difficult at each increment, understandable, but how do you move up without moving up?  

I plan to be IFR rated by the time I buy an airplane. I'm training in cherokees and warriors. 

Is a Mooney too much airplane for a first plane? 

Just for argument sake and nothing more, Would this work logging a good amount of hours in each of the following before transitioning- Trainer Pipers > Mooney M20J > 36 Bonanza > 58 Baron > TBM or Meridian > King Air 90 

How do you get to the extremely capable airplanes? 

Anyways! Sorry if this stirs some kind of pot, I am genuinely intrigued. I want some bad ass airplanes, but I want to be a good enough pilot to handle them. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Capitalist

[carusoam]

Training + experience = getting to the next level...

Transition Training when changing to the next plane is a normal step...

all planes are different.  All pilots are different.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

You move up incrementally and gain experience. Yeah you can get in over your head by jumping to far ahead.

 

It's not just stick and rudder can you handle take offs and landing, it's do you have the judgement to fly across four different weather systems that are in range of your plane now, or can you keep ahead of the plane mentally when it's going 180kts instead of 120?

 

Re Mooney, which Mooney? Yeah a Bravo or Acclaim or even an Ovation is a lot of airplane. An M20C on the other hand is only 180hp, big difference.

 

My path was 172s and warriors and archers. Then Arrows, and then got my instrument rating before moving to a high performance Mooney. Then commercial single and multi. And so on.

 

Basically you get to very capable airplanes by flying increasingly complex and higher performance ones, and by getting very good transition training...

 

 

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[peevee]

The Cirrus is much, much less workload than the rocket. I think it's fine for a newish pilot. It's a plane that wants to automate everything for you.

[kpaul]

Apples to oranges, kind of, but you realize that the military takes people without a private and at the end of a year they have flown the T-6 II and either the T-38 or T-1.  An additional year qualifies them in the most complex aircraft ever developed.

So, no a Mooney is not too much airplane, as long as you are willing to put in the hours and have a good instructor.  An instructor that is "dropping hints" and has narrow minded preconceived notions about complex aircraft is not the one I would choose.

[Capitalist]

15 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Apples to oranges, kind of, but you realize that the military takes people without a private and at the end of a year they have flown the T-6 II and either the T-38 or T-1.  An additional year qualifies them in the most complex aircraft ever developed.

So, no a Mooney is not too much airplane, as long as you are willing to put in the hours and have a good instructor.  An instructor that is "dropping hints" and has narrow minded preconceived notions about complex aircraft is not the one I would choose.

Interesting you would say that about this instructor. If I've learned something about CFIs they are all pretty opinionated. I came from a flight school with all the young hotshot CFIs clearly building hours to go work for an airline. I never got the plane or instructor I wanted. It was taking too long between lessons.

The new flight school is much smaller and my CFI used to fly commercial and aged out. I would say he's better than the other option in my area. My intention wasn't to make him sound like a dick, just an interesting and debatable perspective. For all we know the guy in question buying the cirrus could be a less than stellar pilot. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Capitalist

[Godfather]

I've seen a lot of Porsche 911 spin out mid corner and plenty other exotics almost park it in the corners. They receive the same comments that your instructor is saying. I personally agree that a sr22tn is too much aircraft for a new pilot. Retract does not add or subtract performance it just adds a little complexity. IMO there is a lot going on with a cirrus aircraft and you need to be dedicated to learn the proper techniques to manage it. Having lots of money does not always mean the individual is dedicated. 

[carusoam]

58 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Training + experience = getting to the next level...

Transition Training when changing to the next plane is a normal step...

all planes are different.  All pilots are different.

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Then get really good at the Mooney you have...  MAPA training...

Some people add the IR in their Mooney...

Others add Commercial...

Fun levels of training

Best regards,

-a-

[carqwik]

" Would this work logging a good amount of hours in each of the following before transitioning- Trainer Pipers > Mooney M20J > 36 Bonanza > 58 Baron > TBM or Meridian > King Air 90 "

Sounds like a good plan...as long as you get competent in each stepping stone along the way.   I might skip the Baron though...and you know the KA90 is kind of slow (unless you get the F90 version)...speed is very addicting!!

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Capitalist said:

For all we know the guy in question buying the cirrus could be a less than stellar pilot. 

Most are.

[Guest]

The greater the complexity and performance of the airplane the longer the training program.  Expect the training to take a week or more as you move up, and the training is not given at the local flight school it's at a training centre, like Flight Safety International.

I have a customer who did 172, 182, SR22, TBM, Citation CJ3 all on his private ticket.

Clarence

[Cooperd0g]

I'm one of the guys @kpaul mentioned. My first plane was a 550hp turboprop, the T-34C, and in less than a year I was flying jet aircraft. But it was also my full time job of study, simulators and flying. Having said that, some people can't move up as fast as others and some people just don't put in the time to study, prepare and fly frequently enough. Flying is a physical skill, aviating is a mental skill - skip out on either for a while and you lose them. I would tell students all the time that flying is easy, being a pilot is hard.

[kpaul]

6 minutes ago, Cooperd0g said:

Flying is a physical skill, aviating is a mental skill - skip out on either for a while and you lose them. I would tell students all the time that flying is easy, being a pilot is hard.

Very accurate.

[rbridges]

I think it can be done with proper training for a patient person with good judgement.  IMO, I'd wait and get a few hours under my belt.  I remember how ugly I was with my training aircraft.  I used a friend's cherokee for the next 80 hours, and I wasn't exactly stellar with the landings then, either.  I definitely wouldn't want to do the same thing to my personal aircraft.  

[PMcClure]

I bought a F with 100 hours, a Turbo Bo at 300 and an R at 500 hours. But I spent a lot of money on training and had a CFI in the right seat for many hours. It can be done, but get the right training. There is some merit to train in what you are going to fly. 

But I wouldn't want to learn how to fly in a F. That is what trainers are for. 

[Bryan]

I was an 80 hour C172 pilot and bought my first plane - M20F.  I got transition training and got released after about 10 hours of DUAL with a Mooney CFI.  I then sold the M20F and moved up to a M20K (turbo) and just recently got my IFR in the K.  I highly recommend getting your IFR in "your" own plane.  I am half way done with my commercial, however, I don't plan on getting rid of the Mooney.  I am only getting my commercial because I like to fly and what better way to fly a lot is work on the next rating.

[Mooneymite]

"Too much plane", is really not a problem given proper training. but:

     Why beat up a high-dollar, high performance airplane learning the basics of flight?

     Why pay the hourly costs associated with a high performance plane when you can learn in something designed for training at a much lower cost?

If you've got dollars to burn, or you are the US government, yes!  Go for it.

 

[peevee]

The thing about airplanes is they only go as fast as the throttle.

[gsengle]

The thing about airplanes is they only go as fast as the throttle.

 

That's not true. They have different stall speeds. Glide ratios. Weights. You point the nose down in an Archer, no problem. Do the same in a modern Mooney for instance, whoa, redline!

 

More HP is more to handle on the runway, we don't take off partial power.

 

Some planes are inherently easier and more forgiving. And of course multi (asymmetric thrust) is a whole other level of difficulty.

 

 

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[steingar]

There are guys who've trained in Bo's, and, dare I say it, Mooneys.  So long as the student pilot is getting competent instruction they can learn in whatever they learn in.  In some ways its better to learn in the airplane you're going to be flying than in something else.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

I also went quickly into far more complex aircraft, (jets), and some real dummies less competent pilots managed to do it, too.  I second the fact that currency is far more important.  It is not so important that the doctor buys the new Bonanza, it is that he does not fly it enough to maintain currency.  Why else would this joke have some validity?

What are the four most dangerous things in aviation?
1.  A doctor in a Bonanza.
2.  A lawyer in a 210.
3.  A Marine in a helicopter.
4.  A stewardess with a chipped tooth.

[flyboy0681]

Thurman Munson comes to mind.

[PMcClure]

Best Deal in Aviation - buy a 152, fly it 100 hours or more, sell it for what you paid for it. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I hear Air Traffic Controllers have a saying -- Mooneys show up as two primary radar returns:  One for the airframe, the second for the pilot about 5 miles in trail. 

[gsengle]

I hear Air Traffic Controllers have a saying -- Mooneys show up as two primary radar returns:  One for the airframe, the second for the pilot about 5 miles in trail. 

Yeah it's hard to have such a fast airplane! lol


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