KT-74 install -- 16 hours?

[jaylw314]

Well, I think I need to chalk this one up as a fail on my part.  I got the work invoice for my KT-74 install, and it was 16 hours of labor.  When I asked for a more detailed breakdown of the labor hours, I got an explanation as to why working on my panel was difficult and how the actual work logged was 30 hours, but since they had only quoted 16 hours in the estimate they honored it and were giving me a huge bargain.  Some of the factors they suggested were:

• not a lot of room in panel
• blind wires installed previously
• racks require unriveting to get access
• software update for the 530W was difficult for unclear reasons

I had had the transponder cable switched to RG-400 at annual, I already have a blade type antenna, and I had specifically asked them NOT to connect the TIS and aural alerts.  So really the install should simply have been swap the tray, connected 1 wire to the 530W, connect 1 wire to the airspeed switch, install airspeed switch, and software setup.

My gut tells me I'm being taken, but there's not really much recourse at this point.  I'm guessing from the description of others' experiences that a KT-74 install with a 430W/530W averages 8-12 hours, so I suppose if I'm being taken, it's only a $500-600 lesson.  To add insult to injury, they spent 4 more hours troubleshooting a static system leak.  I won't disclose which avionics shop I went to for now until I hear enough feedback, although I think I have mentioned it before.

In the end, the total install cost ended up being $2700 for the transponder and airspeed switch, and $2100 for labor.  To add more insult to injury, Bendix King had been running a $500 upgrade rebate that got reduced to $250 last month.

How does this compare to others' experiences with their KT-74 installs?  Is my incredulity unreasonable?

[MB65E]

Sounds a little bit high, but I try to think of senerios where I could do it faster. My stuff always take forever because I'm anal when I'm installing things and really try to improve everything I touch, or at least make it correct. If they did a nice job and you are happy with the install I think that's all that really matters. 

What TXP came out?  Many installs take forever because of a lack of effort on the prior install. Rework sucks on both sides of the coin, saves Zero dollars. 

If you were unhappy with the static leak, I'd try and get them to knock off some time for the rework. Hopfully the transponder will be the only thing squawking. 

-Matt

 

[jaylw314]

The old transponder was a KT76A

[N201MKTurbo]

I'm currently installing an Avidyne 550 and transponder. I built two new radio racks and am essentially re-installing the whole panel and cleaning up everything done in the last 40 years. I've got about 50 hours in already and about 20 more to go.

i never dreamed it would take this much effort.

Edited August 11, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[ArtVandelay]

Mine was 4, BUT I already had panel apart and added transponder during install because I needed a encoder anyway.

[jwilcoxon78]

The time to bring it up is when you have the quote or estimate.  Seems high to me but, hard to argue after the work is done and they let you know how long it was going to take. 

[drapo]

I was quoted 2hrs labor to exchange my KT76A for the Avidyne AXP340, basically the same transponder as the KT76A and the Trig TT31.

That includes the cable to the IFD540 for ADS-B out. But my M20E still has the old windshield with the avionic bay access.

Haven't done it yet though, waiting for new technology...

[neilpilot]

When we had our KT74 installed to replace the KT76A, the labor breakdown was as follows:

• 2hr - change coax cable
• 1hr - GNS430W software update
• 16hr - install KT74
• 6hr - additional labor (unspecified) at NO CHARGE

So the total labor was 25 hours but we paid for 19 hours labor, total $1630.  A fresh pitot-static & tpx certification was included, as was TIS-B on the GNS430.

[LANCECASPER]

I think as shops are filling up their schedules the prices are going up - supply and demand. Two years ago someone got a KT74 installed at Precision Avionics for $600 labor.

Go to page three and the second post on this thread:

The only advantage of putting anything with the King name would be that there was just a few hours of labor to run the wires since it's a "slide-in" replacement. Hindsight being 20/20, the $2995 GTX335 deal which is allowed to be installed by an A&P might be a better deal.

[MIm20c]

A tremendous amount of time can be wasted dealing with previous install shortcuts.  Installs have definitely gone up over the past three years as shops have gotten busier.  Just a two year check can cost $350 plus so I would not call a $600 install the norm. 

Keep in mind this forum spans many different areas of the country/world and many people have special connections and abilities that make straight comparisons difficult. 

In the end avionics are expensive to install, especially if you do one box at a time. 

[jaylw314]

Thanks for the feedback so far, guys.  Taking that into account, I feel a little better that my cost is not wildly inconsistent with others' experiences.  I still have a hard time with the argument that the install took 30 hours, but I suppose that's neither here nor there for me.

[thinwing]

Since you did not connect the ''tis or aural imputs..there was never any need to remove old tray or derivet tray supports...both inputs needed were already there using old kt76a tray.Total install time was 2.5 hrs which included two software updates ,one for the 430w and one for the kt-74.Work was done using my self and a very talented auto mechanic /model maker.Than IA signed off per peregrine stc...

[thinwing]

Ps..depending on year of your J...airspeed switch is also already there as part of your retraction system and has a second output available for use which is what we used on my M

[jaylw314]

28 minutes ago, thinwing said:

Since you did not connect the ''tis or aural imputs..there was never any need to remove old tray or derivet tray supports...both inputs needed were already there using old kt76a tray.Total install time was 2.5 hrs which included two software updates ,one for the 430w and one for the kt-74.Work was done using my self and a very talented auto mechanic /model maker.Than IA signed off per peregrine stc...

I thought the STC requires the install to be done by an FAA avionics shop?

[thinwing]

Nope 

[thinwing]

Give John at Peregrine a call if in doubt....it was trig that paid Peregrine to obtain STC..trig mfd kt-74,there own tt 21/31 and of course Avadyne units.They all use the same back end...with the diff being the GUI..

 

[ArtVandelay]

Ps..depending on year of your J...airspeed switch is also already there as part of your retraction system and has a second output available for use which is what we used on my M

When I installed mine, they told me they would not do that, tying into safety system was a poor practice.

[thinwing]

My IA had a different opinion obviously,as he was one who suggested it.He believed you were more likely to cause a problem by unnecessarily cutting into your pitot system and adding a second switch vs simply using the second output on the switch already there.I tend to agree with him.

[takair]

16 hours may not seem unreasonable for an average shop if this was their first time working on your plane and first time doing this install.  As others have indicated, just doing the recertification can add a couple of hours.  If you did full IFR cert, that can be as much as 4 hours.  I just had a software update to my 430 and there was a two hour charge.  1 hour for the work and one hour for the paperwork.  Did it really take that long?  No, but you pay for the time they are tied to the aircraft, not touch time.  30 hours total time seems high, but i assume they are including prep time in this number.....think engineering time.  This is reading all the install manuals, how to do the software update, ordering parts and updates, etc.  The shop still has to pay the tech for this time.  When we do our own work, we typically do not include this in our touch time.  Picture a simple oil change, an individual may do it in 30 minutes or and hour if well versed, but if you have never done it before it would take much longer...including research here on Mooneyspace.  Add paperwork, smoke breaks, interruptions, lost tools, etc and it adds up. Mooneys can be a tough plane to work on and the moment you have to get behind the rack it can really add some time.  Would I want to pay that much, no.  That is where getting multiple quotes helps.

[jaylw314]

Had time to test the KT-74 this weekend.  The first test it failed because of a minute's worth of bad altitude reporting?  It wasn't possible to figure where that happened, but the second time it passed.

Now, though, the altitude preselector (KAS-297B) is wonky.  When I select a vertical speed, the autopilot starts the climb or descent, then stops and starts.  The flight director actually indicates the climb or descent accurately, the plane just doesn't follow.  Everything else on the KFC-150 seems to work, including the altitude preselect function.  Moderately annoying.  I know they worked on the static system (they troubleshot a static leak), but not sure how this would affect it since the altimeter and encoder seem to work fine, and I think the KAS-297B only gets the encoding signal (no static line) and autopilot info.

I think I will wait a while until I have financially recovered before chasing this down.

[takair]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Had time to test the KT-74 this weekend.  The first test it failed because of a minute's worth of bad altitude reporting?  It wasn't possible to figure where that happened, but the second time it passed.

Now, though, the altitude preselector (KAS-297B) is wonky.  When I select a vertical speed, the autopilot starts the climb or descent, then stops and starts.  The flight director actually indicates the climb or descent accurately, the plane just doesn't follow.  Everything else on the KFC-150 seems to work, including the altitude preselect function.  Moderately annoying.  I know they worked on the static system (they troubleshot a static leak), but not sure how this would affect it since the altimeter and encoder seem to work fine, and I think the KAS-297B only gets the encoding signal (no static line) and autopilot info.

I think I will wait a while until I have financially recovered before chasing this down.

I would suggest calling the shop and at least telling them about it.  If this issue was not the there before, then they should offer warranty service.  As for the initial issue with the encoder, older encoders had a warm up period that becomes more apparent when tied to modern avionics.

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, takair said:

I would suggest calling the shop and at least telling them about it.  If this issue was not the there before, then they should offer warranty service.  As for the initial issue with the encoder, older encoders had a warm up period that becomes more apparent when tied to modern avionics.

Good point, and interesting comment about the encoder warming up, I'll have to test it after a longer flight, thanks!