Jump to content

Not the best landing


Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

Centerline alignment is to the left, but otherwise, this is what I aim for.

Also be careful in a crosswind when the nose wheel comes down that you have released most of the rudder correction.  Since that controls the nosewheel steering you can find your self suddenly veering towards the edge of the runway.  Release the correction, let her nose touch and then find the new correction.

 

I'm glad you didn't die during the touch-and-go!   ;)

  • Like 2
  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I'm not quite sure about the above comment. What do you mean?

He was doing knots on the A/S indicator. Everything seems safe to me speed wise.

Did I miss something? 

A few months back  there was a thread about doing touch and go's.  Many members were OK with it, many simply no longer do them because it was a training exercise we no longer need. A smaller but vocal minority proclaimed that they should never, ever, ever, ever be done in a Mooney, and you will certainly bend metal or kill yourself if you do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bartman said:

A few months back  there was a thread about doing touch and go's.  Many members were OK with it, many simply no longer do them because it was a training exercise we no longer need. A smaller but vocal minority proclaimed that they should never, ever, ever, ever be done in a Mooney, and you will certainly bend metal or kill yourself if you do.

I'm sure none of them fly in areas where deer run out on runways then.   Touch and goes should be a part of training.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Come on, its still just an airplane. We did touch and gos in 727s and 737s.  Change the flaps setting, reset the trim, add power and go. Same on go-arounds. Pitch easily as power is added slowly and keep your airspeed under control. Go-arounds are not an emergency type maneuver. Why does everyone get so excited about them? There's nothing here to get excited about. Just fly the airplane. Ain't no big trick to it.  

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/12/2017 at 4:46 PM, gitmo234 said:

Food for thought. I know for a fact my flare has been a high. I've been worried about the nose gear and giving it the 172 size flare. 

So here's a view from outside the cockpit, for a change.  I am based at a very short field, and on my return flight from Air Mods annual (tweaked the rigging and bought an extra couple knots!), I had a dead calm day at the home drome.  No wind days are not a bonus on short runways.  I think you'll be surprised how close to the ground the flare is.

 

This was a minimum-energy landing.  I was at 71 KIAS the whole way down final and <70 crossing the numbers.  My suggestions (not a CFI, but lots of medium and long body time):

  1. Test and record your Vso.  Especially with TKS, I want to know at what speed the plane will stall.  Do this at various weights.  My stall varies from 54 - 59 KIAS, depending on weight.
  2. Make a Vref card for various weights.  My columns are for Vref=1.3*Vso and Vref=1.2*Vso.  I use 1.3 for big fields and 1.2 for critically short fields.  These Vref's range from 65 - 77 KIAS.  
  3.  Get slow early on final.  Hit and hold your Vref, and your landings will improve quickly.
  4. If you are not too fast on final, you will feel the aircraft enter the ground effect.  It's hard to describe, but you will feel an acceleration or dampening of the descent rate.  This is your cue to trim up and remove power simultaneously.  I continue to trim throughout the flare.
  5. If you're trimmed for Vref, it's one less thing to worry about.  You can focus on the sight picture, the visual effects Rod Machado and others have described, and bask in the satisfaction of a well executed landing.

Good luck.

 

p.s. Per Don Kaye's recommendation, speed brakes are stowed on final and used only after the mains are on the runway.  Works great for me.

Edited by exM20K
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/10/2017 at 3:46 PM, Mooney_Mike said:

 

Bartman,

If you have it trimmed to maintain your target approach speed on final that's really where you should leave the trim. The aircraft in a given trim / speed setting in the same configuration will seek that airspeed should you have to go around. Excessive nose up trim (in the flare) means on a go around you will have to add forward pressure on the yoke while trimming nose down ( to prevent a low alt stall), a serious distraction during a critical time. Wouldn't it be a great aid to leave it trimmed right where it needs to be for safe stable flight should you need to abort the landing?

 

Also Another reason to not use full flaps on landing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Make a Vref card for various weights.  My columns are for Vref=1.3*Vso and Vref=1.2*Vso.  I use 1.3 for big fields and 1.2 for critically short fields.  These Vref's range from 65 - 77 KIA

Just my personal opinion but I think some over correct for our Mooneys tendance to float and land long by flying a stabilized approach too slow. How many times have you experienced unexpected wind shear as you decend across the tree line?  If you are at 65 knots the pucker factor can be huge.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/14/2017 at 7:42 AM, ABCDEF said:

There is a small level of increased risk performing touch and goes over full stop landings. For the experienced pilot it should be fine, those with little time in type may want to refrain.

 

 

Here is another totaled airplane because of a touch and go. http://www.wcmessenger.com/2017/breaking/man-uninjured-in-plane-wreck/print/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I put up a post here about a crappy day. During one of my landings I neglected to reset the trim and flaps. Came within 3 miles an hour of a departure stall. If I really have to I'm pretty certain I can get out of dodge, but I'm certainly not doing it for no good reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hopefully staying on-topic here...I've been recording my flights to analyze my landings.  Based on what I'm seeing, it looks like I may be touching down at too flat an angle.  All three tires are generally making contact at the same time. I'm supposed to land on the mains first, to make sure the nose wheel doesn't get too much weight/stress, right?  On the plus side, I'm never touching down with the nose wheel first, so that is good at least.   

This landing is fairly representative of my landing performance recently (this was shot on August 20).  Sometimes I'l able to touch the mains first, a half-second before the nose.  I'm touching down consistently at 69 mph/60 knots.  Landing with full flaps. Anyway, inviting any feedback/input here to help either validate or improve my landings.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Flat landings are generally due to too much speed. Do you ever hear the stall buzzer at touchdown? What is your Full Flap, Gear Down stall speed? For my C model, it's 57 mph. So if you're touching down at 69 mph, you are flying it on, thus the level condition of your plane at that speed. My own landings aren't perfect, but I do often hear the stall buzzer; it would be nice, though, to keep the nosewheel up longer than a half second before it, too, touches.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Was that accident because of a touch and go? Or rather just a garden variety "touching" without the gear down.

Wasn't really an accident.  No bent metal, and with all the trim and flaps it certainly gains altitude with alacrity.  Just an unusual situation that lead to some distraction.  My point was if I'm going to deal with that by fireballing the throttle in touch down position I'd best have a very good reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Flat landings are generally due to too much speed. Do you ever hear the stall buzzer at touchdown? What is your Full Flap, Gear Down stall speed? For my C model, it's 57 mph. So if you're touching down at 69 mph, you are flying it on, thus the level condition of your plane at that speed. My own landings aren't perfect, but I do often hear the stall buzzer; it would be nice, though, to keep the nosewheel up longer than a half second before it, too, touches.

Thanks Hank.  That makes sense.  My flaps/gear out stall speed is 57 knots, so 66 mph.  So I'm pretty close to the stall speed, but maybe that is not close enough.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, SkyTrekker said:

Anyway, inviting any feedback/input here to help either validate or improve my landings.

An easy fix for landing flat is to try putting just a tad more back trim in than you think you need.  In other words, trim for the speed you should be entering the flare.  This has worked well in the C when I transition guys....particularly the heavy metal guys.  ^_^

YMMV

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1 on too much speed being the culprit...

If you were to raise the nose to solely allow the mains to touch, the additional AOA added, turns into a ballooning affair.

Some people get really good at knowing what the speed is while they are in the last moments of flight, others use an AOAi, most are trained to hold the nose off until the excess speed bleeds off, at a few inches above the ground...

PP thoughts only, not a cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I thought it was 57 m.p.h.?

So did I, but he flies an E. I'd expect the stall speed to be a little higher than our Cs, but not 12 mph higher. Even Acclaims, almost 1000 lb heavier, stall at 60 knots.

I fly final at 85 mph, slowing to 70-75 over the numbers depending on weight, and like to hear the stall horn between 57-64 mph depending on flap setting before / as I touch down. I suspect @SkyTrekker has the units confused, but I will often believe a screenshot. (Sorry, Marauder, not necessarily yours . . . .  :rolleyes: )

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Andy95W, @Hank,

I would definitely believe a screen cap over me any day :-)  I had copied some reference info from the web and that was indicating 57 knots, which was obviously wrong.  When I looked at my POH, it was identical to the screen cap Andy provided. I'll definitely be watching and working on my landing speed to see if that helps.  Will also try the back trim that @Mooneymite suggested (thanks!)

This is an interesting point of clarification for me, though.  Maybe someone can explain...

I want to understand how the chart of speeds above correlates to simple Vsi and Vso speeds for a Mooney.  Are the Vs speeds assuming a bank angle of 0?  That is, when we compare the Mooney Vs speeds to other aircraft Vs speeds, are those reference points all assuming a bank angle of 0, as in the first column of the chart above?  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.