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Not the best landing


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Bartman,

If you have it trimmed to maintain your target approach speed on final that's really where you should leave the trim. The aircraft in a given trim / speed setting in the same configuration will seek that airspeed should you have to go around. Excessive nose up trim (in the flare) means on a go around you will have to add forward pressure on the yoke while trimming nose down ( to prevent a low alt stall), a serious distraction during a critical time. Wouldn't it be a great aid to leave it trimmed right where it needs to be for safe stable flight should you need to abort the landing?

Just some thoughts, I only wish the best for you and all of those that reads these posts.

I get the plane a couple feet off the runway, power idle and  simply  "muscle" it in the flare maintaining a level flight path with a nose high attitude  ( adding incramental  back pressure till the wing quits flying. When it is ( the airplane) out of energy it will touch down with no bounce or skipping. (Assuming your 1 to 3 feet above ground during the flare maneuver )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mooney_Mike
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As you can see from all the comments above there are many ways to land a Mooney.

If you read them carefully you will find two common threads among all of them.......

1. Speed

2. Control

Get these two things correct and you will be happy with most of your landings.

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Yes, trimming on final is something that doesn't seem normal to me.  Not saying it's bad, it just doesn't seem normal to ME.  I trim for about 80 or slightly less on downwind just before turning base.  Since my transition training I haven't done a go around, but that trim setting is similar to my takeoff setting.  For me I don't want to be fooling with things on final.  The less I have to mess with the better.

We all have different methods and techniques.

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I haven't bounced bad since ether prop strike thank Odin.  I have to admit, one landing a little while ago seemed to be going wrong just above the runway, attitude seemed  bit extreme.  A blip of power fixed that.  I love my Mooney, but I'll never claim its easily landed.

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Well, its definitely a site picture issue, or at least thats part of it. I fly my bird every day for my commute into DC. The airfield I land on there is flat. I've made some landings elsewhere too. Always nice. I bounced her again the other night and got out of dodge. That was rough. 2x go rounds because she just didnt want to get down. Seemed a little low so I added a few seconds of power on final and just couldnt get it low enough. Go around...go around. Third attempt....bounce....bounce...go around.  Fourth attempt was ugly but successful. 

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Well, its definitely a site picture issue, or at least thats part of it. I fly my bird every day for my commute into DC. The airfield I land on there is flat. I've made some landings elsewhere too. Always nice. I bounced her again the other night and got out of dodge. That was rough. 2x go rounds because she just didnt want to get down. Seemed a little low so I added a few seconds of power on final and just couldnt get it low enough. Go around...go around. Third attempt....bounce....bounce...go around.  Fourth attempt was ugly but successful. 

 

You should fly over to New Garden and we'll get the scorecards out to judge your landing.

 

Really sounds like you are carrying to much speed and putting the nose wheel down early. You really need to resist the temptation to let up on the back pressure. Just hold it off. I'm willing to bet you are not hearing the stall warning. If you are then you are probably flaring too high and dropping it on.

 

In all seriousness, if you want someone to fly some landings with you, let me know. There are 3 of us Mooney owners at New Garden.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Marauder said:

 

You should fly over to New Garden and we'll get the scorecards out to judge your landing. emoji16.png

 

Really sounds like you are carrying to much speed and putting the nose wheel down early. You really need to resist the temptation to let up on the back pressure. Just hold it off. I'm willing to bet you are not hearing the stall warning. If you are then you are probably flaring too high and dropping it on.

 

In all seriousness, if you want someone to fly some landings with you, let me know. There are 3 of us Mooney owners at New Garden.

 

 

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I actually would like that. I'm having my plugs and/or mags looked at this week. It *seems* okay to fly after a 10 minute run up to get the mag check to pass, but im not confident others would be okay in it.

What I really need is refining. I can land an airplane. What I'm not good is the art of it all... managing fuel, trimming it out just right, and all the other smaller things that come together that make the difference between okay and good, and from good to great

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Sit on the runway before take off and visualize that picture.  Then repeat that.   You are fast, it might be that your airspeed indicator is not proper.  You might need to go up to above 5000 and do some stalls and check out the stall warning.  Depending I will grab for 2 trim wheels right before the end of the runway which some times cause the nose to be a bit light.  but since I know I am losing energy it will come back.   Never let the nose go down.

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I actually would like that. I'm having my plugs and/or mags looked at this week. It *seems* okay to fly after a 10 minute run up to get the mag check to pass, but im not confident others would be okay in it.
What I really need is refining. I can land an airplane. What I'm not good is the art of it all... managing fuel, trimming it out just right, and all the other smaller things that come together that make the difference between okay and good, and from good to great


Just let us know when. We can fly in one of our planes as well so you can get an idea of the sight picture. I have made some of the best landings I ever made in a Mooney (you know the kind, you don't feel the touchdown but hear the wheels rolling).

I have also made some of my worst landings as well in a Mooney. The kind where I'm expecting the arresting cable to be felt any second. When it goes crappy it is usually due to too much speed or releasing back pressure too soon.


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On 8/9/2017 at 7:52 PM, gitmo234 said:

Gents,

i was tricked by smooth air today. Landed around 7pm eastern and it was glass coming in. With it being so nice and soft I paid a little less attention to speed and flared a bit to high. I was looking at the runway ahead of me (which angled up) vs where I was. I bounced her 3 times.

 

Welcome to Mooney's

Two types of Mooney drivers

 

1. Those who have bounced

2. Those who will bounce

I'd venture that the percentages highly favor #1

 

Always remember the  four C's

Cram (firewall everything)

Climb

Clean (flaps, gear)

Communicate

Signed a number 1'er

 

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Airspeed is 90% of it, but I find that if I flare too high she will bounce. You can stall a 172 or Cherokee from 3 feet and no big deal but not a Mooney. The Mooney sits lower and her feet are short too. I had the illusion that I was lower than I really was in the beginning. 

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I've said it before but I can grease my Mooney on more consistently than any other plane I have owned or flown. There is a certain precision to the way it handles. As others have said the speed has to be right and once the runway is made I take out the remaining power and let her settle on. I have found that good landings in the Mooney involve less of a prounounced flare than other aircraft, and you should not hear the stall warning horn. I understand from pilots that have experience flying all the Mooney models that the long bodies are the easiest to land well, but I have only flown mine so I have no personal basis for comparison. 

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15 hours ago, Yetti said:

It took about 75 hours in the plane to get good at it and start to become natural. Keep striving.

I can second that. I got my Mooney when I had about 58 hours total and 152 landings, all in Cherokees. It wasn't until I was at about 60-70 hours in the Mooney and around 100 landings before I was feeling as comfortable landing it as I was landing the Cherokee.

For me it is always about the speed and not flaring too much. Taking @donkaye's advice from other posts I try to trim for 80mph, hands off on final. In my plane that is usually almost all the way trim up. After that once I know I have the runway made (short final) I pull power and then "try" to fly it onto the runway with just a little nose up attitude. If I do that it is very smooth. The flare is much less nose up attitude than in the Cherokees.  If I get too much nose up in the flare it will come down hard and bounce.

One of my best landings was at the end of this video at Logan. Touchdown was right at the 1,000' mark, we barely even felt it touch the ground.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

Food for thought. I know for a fact my flare has been a high. I've been worried about the nose gear and giving it the 172 size flare. 

Go somewhere with a long runway that you aren't worried about getting it on the ground. Get into ground effect and then just try to hold it barely off the runway until it touches down. It doesn't take much nose up to do that. I've never flown a 172 so I can't comment on that, but compared to the Cherokee it doesn't feel like I'm really flaring much at all in the Mooney. Better yet, take up the offer from @Marauder to go get some landings in with them. Do a few where they are landing and you can just pay attention to the sight picture without worrying about flying the plane. Once you have that in your mind then it's your turn to try it. Going up with @MHemperly and watching him land helped me a lot to get the sight picture.

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10 hours ago, Bravoman said:

 I have found that good landings in the Mooney involve less of a prounounced flare than other aircraft, and you should not hear the stall warning horn. 

In a short body, if you enter the flare at 1.3 Vs, you will almost always hear the stall warning unless you're "driving it on".  

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I'm available to help as well as Chris, I'd consider going over to Wilmington which is a heck of a lot easier than Raintree or New Garden, go up and slow flight recognizeing you stall speeds and characteristics, nailing your speeds, doing some cross winds then swing over to New Garden tougher airport then off to Raintree to see how it goes Raintree tougher yet. Pm me or Chris. My guys almost done it's annual I'll be out pan handleing for funds.

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It is possible to flare for landing, touch down nose high (main wheels only) and then keep pulling back on the control wheel and keep the nose wheel in the air until you lose airspeed and the elevator becomes ineffective and the nose wheel settles to the ground. Just like any other airplane. It all has to do with speed control and elevator control. One can hold the nose off or let it fall. All depends on what airspeed you touch down at. Doesn't matter if its a Boeing or Mooney, they all fly the same. They're just airplanes. 

Trim for 75-80 on final and flare by hand, pull. Its easy. Also makes go-arounds a non-event even at 5 feet. 

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Centerline alignment is to the left, but otherwise, this is what I aim for.

Also be careful in a crosswind when the nose wheel comes down that you have released most of the rudder correction.  Since that controls the nosewheel steering you can find your self suddenly veering towards the edge of the runway.  Release the correction, let her nose touch and then find the new correction.

 

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14 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

In a short body, if you enter the flare at 1.3 Vs, you will almost always hear the stall warning unless you're "driving it on".  

Truth, brother! In my C, it's all about airspeed control. 85 mph on final, slowing to 70-75 mph "over the fence" (I don't go places with fences very often, and with long, open approaches even less frequently), pull to idle when I know I have the field made, and glide down to the runway holding off as long as possible. Usually get a brief buzz from  the stall horn just before or as the mains touch down.

When it's gusty, keep a little more speed and fly it on, pulling power to touch down rather than before the pavement starts.

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