Jump to content

Formation Flying Demo at the Mooney Summit


mike_elliott

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, N9201A said:

Here is the answer, for ANYONE who wants to come out and fly form with the Caravan:

"Please see www.mooneycaravan.com - join the forum, email someone in leadership from your region (email addresses are on the site).  Also, try to attend a B2Osh clinic, but please contact us before you do so we can help coordinate that.  They've been very welcoming, but we don't want to abuse their hospitality.

"Also please NOTE:  The Caravan isn't a business that trains formation pilots.  We are all-volunteer and exist to promote safety and to fly our MSN-OSH flight as a formation.  We can never have too many qualified safety pilots, and not having enough limits our ability to turn everyone in the world on to our addictive pastime.  If you're actually registered for OSH, we WILL ensure you demonstrate proficiency and get to participate.  I am unaware of an exception since we went all-form.  

"If you just want to try formation flying, you are welcome to come to a clinic, but registered OSHers will always take precedence."

Now you have an answer you can use all the time that is accurate.  PM/email/call me for any "special cases."  Bottom line, anyone serious about flying form who has put in the effort has gotten to, as far as I am aware.  

That is an answer on how to be Mooney Caravan Formation trained, but does not answer why the Mooney Caravan group does not have a formation clinic either right before or right after the Mooney Summit next year. That answer was provided by Chuck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is an answer on how to be Mooney Caravan Formation trained, but does not answer why the Mooney Caravan group does not have a formation clinic either right before or right after the Mooney Summit next year. That answer was provided by Chuck.


Chuck said it's a bad idea to co-locate a clinic with a fly-in or social event. As a CFI I'm sure you recognize that focus issue, even without airspace, traffic and other issues.

As I wrote, this is the answer to the question I read you get from many people about how to get form trained.

As I also wrote, if you want to be the "tentpole" guy who organizes, publicizes, administers and runs the non-operational part of a clinic, step up. That is how each clinic nationwide got started. Someone stepped up and said "I will do it." Then they got Caravan leadership/operations to help get them the safeties needed to support the mission.

But like you wrote, you're busy with the Summit and I totally get that. Who needs ANOTHER project?

So the actual answer to why isn't their a clinic for the next person who asks you can be "why don't you organize one, and there could be!"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Larry that's in part what we are doing if the Caravan management wants to have one, only letting the Caravan guys do the admin, training etc so as not to step on any egos or toes. The offer is on the table, as the attendee's would engage before or after the event. No biggie, just thought it would make sense since it has been requested as noted by Raptor's post here. Your call, your show, your rules, our location.


You are misreading and misquoting me.

Bucko wasn't "Caravan management" when he said "I will host a clinic." He stepped up and volunteered, put the time in and got the word out, secured pilots who actually showed up, and administratively ran a great event.

So if you (or anyone for that matter) wants to step up, just do it.

What is the "offer on the table"? Don't see you saying "I will administrate it." If someone wants to host a clinic at an airport they can do so. See above. No offer necessary.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

only letting the Caravan guys do the admin, training etc so as not to step on any egos or toes.


This is extremely important so I broke it out separately. Admin and operations are the difference between a casual airport lunch and actually flying. These are wholly different things, and are treated differently for good reasons.

YES, we want ONLY qualified formation safety pilots helping to conduct a clinic.

YES, we want ONLY vetted, well-reviewed and oft-updated reference materials in accordance with decades-established protocols that work used.

We are doing something dangerous, safely. This isn't about ego or "toes," this is about dong something dangerous, safely. Mindset is everything. If one doesn't have the correct mindset, don't come out.

And if it's a "Caravan" event, then yes, Caravan leadership (which is balanced across the US and Canada) allocates organizational resources and balances those against need.

Turning to admin, the non-flying related stuff, we don't care who prints the TShirts, collects the lunch money, or scores some cool door prize sponsorship. That's admin. What matters is someone steps up to do it. If no one is willing to do it, that's a pretty good indicator of demand. Where people have stepped up, there are now clinics. It's simple.

If there is sufficient demand (again, regional leadership allocates their regional needs with national help - like B2Osh) then there will be a clinic. That's how we went from none - showing up at B2Osh events - to give active regional groups and numerous clinics, some hosting dozens of aircraft including warbirds.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites



After watching the mess from the tail (well JP was right behind me), I asked Karl Ludolph (the real Jester) to speak with David Phieler about doing tight ship formations at the MAPA tent the next day. The rest is history.


Mike, I am sure I'm not the only one who is very curious to hear the rest of the "history" to which you refer.

Can you please elaborate? Inquiring minds want to know....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I asked Karl Ludolph (the real Jester) to speak with David Phieler about doing tight ship formations at the MAPA tent the next day. The rest is history.


Also, it's Piehler.

I'm not sure he's on MS, actually, but my guess is he would be but another of the inquiring minds waiting for the rest of the "history" ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N9201A said:

 


Also, it's Piehler.

I'm not sure he's on MS, actually, but my guess is he would be but another of the inquiring minds waiting for the rest of the "history" ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Piehler is on MS:

https://mooneyspace.com/profile/12811-dave-piehler/

Yves

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N9201A said:

 

 


Also, it's Piehler.

I'm not sure he's on MS, actually, but my guess is he would be but another of the inquiring minds waiting for the rest of the "history" ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

My apologies DYL, (I have seen David a couple times on this forum)

David  was a participant in the conversation with Karl Ludolph of red flag and N1 fame,  and can also fill you in on the conversation.. It was really scary that year without a tight ship formation from my vantage point (just in front of Jonathan Paul, Mooney tail) People were not on altitude, on speed or even maintaining separation, including group leaders. Remember the frantic call heard on frequency "BREAK RIGHT" as one group leader about overtook and hit another? I am glad the Caravan listened to Karl and went the direction it did.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Ah, thanks Olaf...Another example of a volunteer who said "I will help," stepped up, and now is a leader who is also responsible for the MooneySpace social at the Mooney North40 HQ tent at OSH.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N9201A said:

 

 


Mike, I am sure I'm not the only one who is very curious to hear the rest of the "history" to which you refer.

Can you please elaborate? Inquiring minds want to know....emoji6.png



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I think the following year, the Mooney Caravan elected to abandon the 1500'/45 deg separation @125IAS for a 3 ship tight formation like the beech group does and as Karl suggested to David. David did tell Karl he would run that by the powers. I imagine a special meeting of the Royal ancient and secret society of the single malt was called to discuss.

I believe you were involved during the transition, were you not? In any event, the dangerous, but still safer than the FISK arrival IMO , slinky arrival was abandoned for the tight ship element formation as taught by our military for the Caravan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, N9201A said:

don't understand this. Why choose between proficiency and currency?  Form proficiency, like instrument skills, is perishable.  This why we require every Caravan participant to demonstrate proficiency in the current calendar year.

I don't understand why Jan 1 is a cutoff for proficiency I guess.

 

20 hours ago, N9201A said:

Why are you asking a guy who already hosts a 35+ aircraft (warbirds, at a military field, FAST checkrides, it's awesome) formation clinic event in February every year to put on a clinic in your hometown?  

I'm not. PCB is a quite aways away from my hometown. I just asked if the Mooney Caravan would be interested in having a formation clinic before or after the Mooney Summit. I got my and everyone who has asked me, the answer.

The Mooney Caravan is not interested in doing this.

I am cool with that. If Lee Fox, or Bucko or one of the others would like to, great. I have more than enough on my plate as it is and do not want to re-invent the wheel here.

Meanwhile, Lee, Bucko, Paul, Bob, Kevin and a host others will provide a nice Formation demo right over the beach Sunday! Thanks guys!! Maybe the F22's can join you!
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My apologies DYL, (I have seen David a couple times on this forum)
David  was a participant in the conversation with Karl Ludolph of red flag and N1 fame,  and can also fill you in on the conversation.. It was really scary that year without a tight ship formation from my vantage point (just in front of Jonathan Paul, Mooney tail) People were not on altitude, on speed or even maintaining separation, including group leaders. Remember the frantic call heard on frequency "BREAK RIGHT" as one group leader about overtook and hit another? I am glad the Caravan listened to Karl and went the direction it did.
 



Ah! I now understand why you might think that. Suggestion ---> Action (years later).

Would that it could've been that simple...if a suggestion from a wise soul is all it would have taken, the first Caravan (and every later one) would've been all-formation, limited (as today) to pilots who'd recently demonstrated proficiency. Because certainly there were many such suggestions over time, including from B2Osh, who abandoned the gaggle within a short time of trying their first mass arrival.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

I just asked if the Mooney Caravan would be interested in having a formation clinic before or after the Mooney Summit. 

The Mooney Caravan is not interested in doing this.

 

Misquoted me again.  "The Mooney Caravan" is not some monolith, nor is it some traveling band of "clinic-putter-onners." We are a collection of volunteers who works very hard in our regions.

If YOU, or ANYONE, wants a clinic in your region, STEP UP! I gave you a couple of examples of people who had done that.  

If there is not even enough interest for one guy to say "I will organize/promote/administer/collect lunch$," then that says it, doesn't it?   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

David  was a participant in the conversation with Karl Ludolph of red flag and N1 fame,  and can also fill you in on the conversation.. It was really scary that year without a tight ship formation from my vantage point (just in front of Jonathan Paul, Mooney tail) People were not on altitude, on speed or even maintaining separation, including group leaders. Remember the frantic call heard on frequency "BREAK RIGHT" as one group leader about overtook and hit another? I am glad the Caravan listened to Karl and went the direction it did.

 

Ah, I understand why you would think that:  Conversation ----> change.  Would that a simple suggestion from a wise person would have been enough, the Caravan would have been all-formation form the beginning!  Remember, B2Osh abandoned the gaggle within a couple years of trying it.

I do remember 2009 well, in fact, you were in my element, Fox, the last one.  

2017-08-15 11.07.43.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since you raise it, and there are many on this forum who don't know it, I will gladly share the Caravan formation story -- as I saw it unfold.  2005 was my first (cannot speak to earlier, but guys like Piehler and Jonathan Paul can) and yes, the gaggle is NOT optimal.  I watched attendance decline year over year.  I watched and listened to some pilots say "never again."  I thought about that too.  

One year I rented a house under Fisk and what I saw after watching convinced me that the Caravan was still safer, as the pilots were all at least organized, briefed, in the same types and expected to be close.  So I stayed with it and got to know more regulars.  Among them were a few form pilots, not just JPaul but also Richard Bristow, Ernie Brock, and Mort Boyd.  They regularly flew form with the B2Osh guys here on the West Coast and invited me to go.  Numerous other people within and without had advocated going to an all-formation format.  Others argued that we were too small a group, could never amass the expertise, we could never get people trained, and that we would "scare people away."  Personally, as a GA-only pilot with no form training, I was apprehensive, but open.  JPaul sponsored me to the board of directors and I was an element lead and on the board in 2009.  

2009 was a turning point - we had an element lead who basically decided he didn't like the spacing in the element ahead of him and decided to fill it ... with his element dutifully in tow.  On final, needless to say, there were airplanes where there should not be airplanes.  No metal was bent, thankfully, but in the debrief what was more shocking than this element doing what he did -- we had all seen that -- but that he DEFENDED it.  This individual had a boatload of ratings and an authoritative position.  

That discussion led to a decision by the then-board to try a form flight in 2010, and many of us immediately suited up with B2Osh to get ready...and then Sploshkosh happened, so we did not get to fly as a mass form that year (although there was ONE element that did fly in a vic from MSN to OSH).  

In 2011, we had half the flight as formation and half as "gaggle."  While most thought it was success, not everyone agreed we should go "all form."  Some still advocated we would lose people, we would scare people, wouldn't train, yadda yadda, But we announced all-form for 2012.  

Thanks to B2Osh and a LOT of work by a LOT of people, we successfully did all-form in 2012.  Yes, we DID lose people, but each year our numbers have grown.   Each year has been better and safer and, yes, MORE fun!  And today our numbers are higher than the first Caravan...and better than 2009!  But more importantly, we are a safer, more fun group.

And thanks to volunteers stepping up, today what started as a few West Coast guys flying form is now five strong regional squadrons, with dedicated leadership, operations, and pilots and families who fly regularly together.  In fact, as the B2Osh brethren "warned" us, we would be flying together a LOT more locally so we are able to socialize with many pilots we would not have met if we remained a once-a-year gaggle for MSN-OSH.  We have many pilots who fly only regionally, or who only make OSH once in a while.  We also have pilots who fly across the country to make a clinic.  

There is an informative deck at the bottom of the FAQ page on the website listing leadership and other key volunteers.  There are also training materials and Ops contacts, as well as a "clinic-in-a-box" product for any volunteer who wants to take ownership of an event.  Form flying is a team sport, and one must be an active participant.  

Hope this clears up the "history"...

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

I don't understand why Jan 1 is a cutoff for proficiency I guess.

 

Any element lead has full discretion as to who is on her/his wing.  More often than not, and our growth has permitted this, each element is composed of pilots from a region who've flown together.  A good practice - again, it depends - is to assign a newbie as "no. 2" to the lead who served as that newbie's safety at a clinic.  

As we have grown, and as strong leadership has taken charge of each region, that regional leadership has been able to do the line-ups for each element from their region.  This was the first year we were able to do that 100%.  Obviously, when a new region/squadron is standing up, it must depend on others (and other appropriate local resources) for support.  So while West Coast guys came out to help Bucko set up Texas, now Texas sports a strong, active group that can support other regions.  We all try to pay it forward, including helping other groups.

Understanding comes with experience and knowledge.  Come out and try it, and some of your questions will be answered ... and others replaced with more questions! 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

 I imagine a special meeting of the Royal ancient and secret society of the single malt was called to discuss.

I do not recall any "business" being discussed at any such meeting....:ph34r:

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike, old friend, your statement “I asked Karl Ludolph (the real Jester) to speak with David Phieler about doing tight ship formations at the MAPA tent the next day. The rest is history.” reminds me of the adage “Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.” In the first place, you give me too much credit. I'm not so influential that a word in my ear could result in what has developed over the last 7 years. In the second place, lots of people talked about transitioning from the gaggle to formation elements (including our strong journalistic critic, Bill Kight). These discussions started long before 2009. Karl's encouragement was but one comment among many. It wasn't a matter of the wisdom of going to a formation model, but how to do it. The problems that seemed intractable were how to develop the expertise to train pilots in formation flight and also how to develop procedures for formation flight. It was not simple thing, by any means.

To say “the rest is history” shortchanges numerous hard-working volunteers who have dedicated countless hours to develop the organizational culture, administrative structure and training and procedures that now define out success. Since you've been watching from afar now that you're down in FL, and haven't been with us in the new era (I've missed you!), I can understand how you might think things just happened, because in many ways we've made it look easy. It's anything but. A brief history lesson would likely be helpful to understand what the Mooney Caravan is (and isn't) and how its structure both promotes its success and determines how growth occurs.

2009: We flew the gaggle. We muddled through as we had since 1998 (with better results than some earlier years such as 2000, when the size of the group presented significant organizational challenges). The conversations about transitioning to a formation model that occurred that year were really just a continuation of conversations that had been going on for many years.

2010: Sloshkosh. Caravan canceled due to field conditions that prevented North 40 camping. We had formation-qualified pilots who had been to Bonanza clinics and practiced with others who were ready to trial a partial formation flight, but that had to wait. Three intrepid pilots named Oliphant, Shopperly, and Brennan waited a few days in MSN and flew a three ship formation on the Fisk arrival. Shopperly landed, as he had a hard surface parking reservation. The other two had to make a low pass and depart. Treating this as proof of concept, the group decided to do a hybrid flight in 2011: three formation elements of three ships each in front, with the gaggle following behind.

2011: A few more pilots participated in Bonanza formation clinics to learn the basics. At Madison it was decided to take the biggest dunderhead who could be found and put him in a training flight with an experienced formation pilot in the right seat as a safety pilot. The theory was that if this guy could be trained anyone could learn to do it. The lead ship in the flight had a highly experienced airline captain in the left seat with an experienced formation pilot as safety pilot. The third ship in the flight was flown by Maj. Dave Marten, a USAF test pilot. The training went well, as did the flight to Madison, a mix of formation elements and gaggle. At the debrief the consensus was to “go for it” in 2012 and transition to all formation.

2012: Thanks in large part to attendance at Bonanza training clinics as well as ad hoc training opportunities, the group managed to qualify a sufficient number of pilots for formation flight to make a relatively small (compared to past years) yet credible formation flight to OSH. The enthusiasm generated by that flight confirmed the decision to make the change.

2013 – 2017: Thanks to a compendious and comprehensive procedures manual developed by Dave Marten and refined with comments from the group, and also to grass roots development of home-grown formation clinics, the group has grown to this year's caravan with 56 registered, qualified and paid up pilots. The model that has evolved is for local pilots to organize clinics with support from the caravan's Operations Group. The limiting factor for a clinic is having a leader who can present the ground school, and adequate safety pilots to fly with the newbies and show them the basics of formation flight, including caravan procedures. We've had yeoman help from Bonanza formation groups, Redstar Pilot's Association safety pilots and military pilots with formation training who've learned how to apply their knowledge to Mooney performance and caravan procedures. We've also had volunteer safety pilots fly thousand mile trips to clinics on their own dime. The essence of the clinics is a procedures structure from the caravan around which a clinic can be organized by volunteers. It's a decentralized process in the sense of local organization, with centralized standardization in the form of the procedures being communicated. We're becoming more sophisticated in our execution, and have become a 501(c)(3) charity to foster our mission. We follow a continuous improvement model that would make any Japanese auto manufacturer envious.

One wag described the Mooney Caravan as “a progressive autonomous collective” of pilots who want to learn and practice formation flight with the annual goal of flying together to AirVenture and with the subsidiary goals of fellowship, training and practice throughout the year. The group has a corporate structure that is very “flat” (little hierarchical management, little red tape) along with a rich organizational structure for providing formation flight opportunities. It has grown solely by dint of volunteers stepping forward to take on responsibilities that fill the group's needs. In that way we have a Safety Director, an Operations Group, a Communications function, an Executive Committee to manage day to day corporate responsibilities, and a robust cadre of regional groups that handle the nuts and bolts of putting on clinics (to name a few functions that volunteers have taken on – by no means an exclusive list). Because of this structure, the group is dependent on local volunteers to organize clinics. It can't descend on a location and “bring” a clinic from headquarters. It can provide support in terms of consultation on clinic organization, procedures, and, to a limited extent, encourage safety pilots to attend. That's about it.

So where does this all lead? The culture of the group is focused on having a great time flying formation with the ultimate goal of flying and fellowship at AirVenture. It has evolved into a year-round organization, with gatherings of varying levels of formality from practice sessions involving a few pilots (which aren't really caravan activities in any formal or legal sense), to occasional demonstrations such as that planned for this year's Mooney Summit, to clinics, to the big show each July. Growth of the group, and extension into presently under-served geographic regions, depends on volunteers stepping up to take on the challenge of local organization, not as a one-shot deal, but as a continuing endeavor to grow year to year. The organization lacks the resources to provide a “top down”' centralized solution to “plant” a clinic in a new region. If you want a clinic, you can partner with caravan members who have the experience or travel to a clinic in another region to get the experience yourself, then start the ball rolling and ask the group for help in implementing a clinic.

Sorry for the long post. Pardon the pedantry. Hope I've shed a little light on history and the structure of the Mooney Caravan to Oshkosh Educational and Safety Foundation, Ltd. And its continuing evolution to make next year's flight to OSH the Best Caravan Ever.

Dave Piehler (aka "Raptor", aka "DYL)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim,

Bill Kight is a great guy, and I consider him a friend.  I've had many conversations with him on this topic (and others).  His comments and encouragement were not limited to his article in Aviation Safety.  That was an extension of past dialogue.  The article elicited rebuttals from within our group.  Bill's thesis could be read a couple ways.  One was that the gaggle form is inherently unsafe.  I don't agree, though we've had pilots try to prove his point.  The gaggle suffers from problems.  First, procedures tend to be less rigorous (not as bad as "hold my beer and follow me" formation flying on hamburger runs, though). Therefore when things don't go to plan people may not react in the best way.  Second, pilots tend to be less experienced, exacerbating #1.  Third, stationkeeping is harder from a distance.  Bill's thesis could also be read as arguing that formation flight is inherently safer and easier than a gaggle.  With this I agree, with the proviso that it must be done with properly trained pilots with recent experience (memory and piloting skills being perishable) following the same procedures.  Even with that we are aware of Stupid Pilot Tricks occurring in formation mass arrival flights.  So it's not cut and dried.  Formation pilots have continued to try to prove that thesis wrong.

What we have definitely found is that formation flight is a whole lot more FUN than the gaggle.  There's a sense of accomplishment and camaraderie that come with a properly executed formation sortie.  And proper execution and mndset are key.  It takes pilots who are on the same page, and thus have had the same training on procedures.  It takes a careful briefing prior to flight, and a careful and thorough "no egos allowed" debriefing afterward.  That's how we continue to improved.  And that answers the question of why we want caravan pilots to have had recent experience.  Just like flying IFR, the perceptive and reactive manual and intellectual skills involved in formation flight are much sharper when you have recency on your side, and the opportunity to review and practice procedures, both standard and abnormal lends to safety of flight.

Dave Piehler

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave, Larry, Mike, as someone who has only flown the Caravan twice I appreciate very much this discussion. I also appreciate all the work that has been done by those who had the vision and the persistence to get the program to where it is today. 

For what it's worth I am scheduled to participate with several MAG pilots in 2 formation demo flights in October which will involve a couple of practice sessions ahead of the events.  Who'd have thunk!

I would add that, very much to my surprise, my bride of 53 years who got me started as a pilot over 48 years ago, turns out to be a fan of, and willing participant in, formation flying! Who'd have thunk! 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dave Piehler said:

Mike, old friend, your statement “I asked Karl Ludolph (the real Jester) to speak with David Phieler about doing tight ship formations at the MAPA tent the next day. The rest is history.” reminds me of the adage “Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan.” In the first place, you give me too much credit. I'm not so influential that a word in my ear could result in what has developed over the last 7 years. In the second place, lots of people talked about transitioning from the gaggle to formation elements (including our strong journalistic critic, Bill Kight). These discussions started long before 2009. Karl's encouragement was but one comment among many. It wasn't a matter of the wisdom of going to a formation model, but how to do it. The problems that seemed intractable were how to develop the expertise to train pilots in formation flight and also how to develop procedures for formation flight. It was not simple thing, by any means.

To say “the rest is history” shortchanges numerous hard-working volunteers who have dedicated countless hours to develop the organizational culture, administrative structure and training and procedures that now define out success. Since you've been watching from afar now that you're down in FL, and haven't been with us in the new era (I've missed you!), I can understand how you might think things just happened, because in many ways we've made it look easy. It's anything but. A brief history lesson would likely be helpful to understand what the Mooney Caravan is (and isn't) and how its structure both promotes its success and determines how growth occurs.

2009: We flew the gaggle. We muddled through as we had since 1998 (with better results than some earlier years such as 2000, when the size of the group presented significant organizational challenges). The conversations about transitioning to a formation model that occurred that year were really just a continuation of conversations that had been going on for many years.

2010: Sloshkosh. Caravan canceled due to field conditions that prevented North 40 camping. We had formation-qualified pilots who had been to Bonanza clinics and practiced with others who were ready to trial a partial formation flight, but that had to wait. Three intrepid pilots named Oliphant, Shopperly, and Brennan waited a few days in MSN and flew a three ship formation on the Fisk arrival. Shopperly landed, as he had a hard surface parking reservation. The other two had to make a low pass and depart. Treating this as proof of concept, the group decided to do a hybrid flight in 2011: three formation elements of three ships each in front, with the gaggle following behind.

2011: A few more pilots participated in Bonanza formation clinics to learn the basics. At Madison it was decided to take the biggest dunderhead who could be found and put him in a training flight with an experienced formation pilot in the right seat as a safety pilot. The theory was that if this guy could be trained anyone could learn to do it. The lead ship in the flight had a highly experienced airline captain in the left seat with an experienced formation pilot as safety pilot. The third ship in the flight was flown by Maj. Dave Marten, a USAF test pilot. The training went well, as did the flight to Madison, a mix of formation elements and gaggle. At the debrief the consensus was to “go for it” in 2012 and transition to all formation.

2012: Thanks in large part to attendance at Bonanza training clinics as well as ad hoc training opportunities, the group managed to qualify a sufficient number of pilots for formation flight to make a relatively small (compared to past years) yet credible formation flight to OSH. The enthusiasm generated by that flight confirmed the decision to make the change.

2013 – 2017: Thanks to a compendious and comprehensive procedures manual developed by Dave Marten and refined with comments from the group, and also to grass roots development of home-grown formation clinics, the group has grown to this year's caravan with 56 registered, qualified and paid up pilots. The model that has evolved is for local pilots to organize clinics with support from the caravan's Operations Group. The limiting factor for a clinic is having a leader who can present the ground school, and adequate safety pilots to fly with the newbies and show them the basics of formation flight, including caravan procedures. We've had yeoman help from Bonanza formation groups, Redstar Pilot's Association safety pilots and military pilots with formation training who've learned how to apply their knowledge to Mooney performance and caravan procedures. We've also had volunteer safety pilots fly thousand mile trips to clinics on their own dime. The essence of the clinics is a procedures structure from the caravan around which a clinic can be organized by volunteers. It's a decentralized process in the sense of local organization, with centralized standardization in the form of the procedures being communicated. We're becoming more sophisticated in our execution, and have become a 501(c)(3) charity to foster our mission. We follow a continuous improvement model that would make any Japanese auto manufacturer envious.

One wag described the Mooney Caravan as “a progressive autonomous collective” of pilots who want to learn and practice formation flight with the annual goal of flying together to AirVenture and with the subsidiary goals of fellowship, training and practice throughout the year. The group has a corporate structure that is very “flat” (little hierarchical management, little red tape) along with a rich organizational structure for providing formation flight opportunities. It has grown solely by dint of volunteers stepping forward to take on responsibilities that fill the group's needs. In that way we have a Safety Director, an Operations Group, a Communications function, an Executive Committee to manage day to day corporate responsibilities, and a robust cadre of regional groups that handle the nuts and bolts of putting on clinics (to name a few functions that volunteers have taken on – by no means an exclusive list). Because of this structure, the group is dependent on local volunteers to organize clinics. It can't descend on a location and “bring” a clinic from headquarters. It can provide support in terms of consultation on clinic organization, procedures, and, to a limited extent, encourage safety pilots to attend. That's about it.

So where does this all lead? The culture of the group is focused on having a great time flying formation with the ultimate goal of flying and fellowship at AirVenture. It has evolved into a year-round organization, with gatherings of varying levels of formality from practice sessions involving a few pilots (which aren't really caravan activities in any formal or legal sense), to occasional demonstrations such as that planned for this year's Mooney Summit, to clinics, to the big show each July. Growth of the group, and extension into presently under-served geographic regions, depends on volunteers stepping up to take on the challenge of local organization, not as a one-shot deal, but as a continuing endeavor to grow year to year. The organization lacks the resources to provide a “top down”' centralized solution to “plant” a clinic in a new region. If you want a clinic, you can partner with caravan members who have the experience or travel to a clinic in another region to get the experience yourself, then start the ball rolling and ask the group for help in implementing a clinic.

Sorry for the long post. Pardon the pedantry. Hope I've shed a little light on history and the structure of the Mooney Caravan to Oshkosh Educational and Safety Foundation, Ltd. And its continuing evolution to make next year's flight to OSH the Best Caravan Ever.

Dave Piehler (aka "Raptor", aka "DYL)

Thanks Dave, I really didn't know the tight ship formation talks began before Karl, you and I had the discussion, but do remember our friend Bill Kight's public critic. I apologize if I in any way shorted all the hard work and effort put in by so many people to make this happen, as this absolutely was not my intention, nor was it my intention to insert myself into a causation of the 3 ship tight formation now used. Giving you credit was, as I have seen first hand how hard you have worked from the inception in the benevolence of the Mooney Caravan, and know that in some way, you were instrumental in spite of your modesty.
Once again, you have accurately and completely filled in all the blanks. If not currently on the Caravan's web site, this would be great content, (Maria, got your ears on?)

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/15/2017 at 3:02 PM, N9201A said:

Misquoted me again.  "The Mooney Caravan" is not some monolith, nor is it some traveling band of "clinic-putter-onners." We are a collection of volunteers who works very hard in our regions.

If YOU, or ANYONE, wants a clinic in your region, STEP UP! I gave you a couple of examples of people who had done that.  

If there is not even enough interest for one guy to say "I will organize/promote/administer/collect lunch$," then that says it, doesn't it?   

There has been interest , and more than one guy willing to "step up", Larry. Hurdles have been getting the number of Mooney Caravan approved safety pilots needed to fill the demand for the slots that will happen. Bucko was working on the possibility and stepping up, and perhaps Lee Fox will going forward. Both of these gents are of caliber and quality recognized. They both have to work within the Mooney Caravan system/structure/plan of work, however, where some issues have been presented as I understand it.

 But if, as you say, is is a simple matter of "stepping up" , then so be, I am sure it will happen. We have a number of qualified and competent people who attend the Summit who would love to see it happen and be a part of it happening. We have a number of people interested who can "pave the way" with airspace, logistics, politics, space and facilities. We have a number of highly trained professional formation pilots available who would be willing to assist, albeit their performance profile might be a bit more aggressive, in any way they can. 

This year's Mooney Summit formation flight demo will go a long way, in generating interest, public perception, and planning for Mooney Caravan approved training, albeit not able to count as currency because it would happen prior to Jan 1 for the following years Caravan as required by the Mooney Caravan.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As mentioned by Larry and others, it is addictive! The Flying Monkeys are flying this Saturday to a local EAA fly-in/breakfast, and then departing to fly over a small town parade. We've got 8-9 planes planned, and I've invited another Mooney owner to ride along and see what it is all about.

I hope a FL/SE group can spin up in the near future and spread the joy!

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I would add that, very much to my surprise, my bride of 53 years who got me started as a pilot over 48 years ago, turns out to be a fan of, and willing participant in, formation flying! Who'd have thunk! 


Bob, that is AWESOME!! Have fun!
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There has been interest , and more than one guy willing to "step up", Larry. Hurdles have been getting the number of Mooney Caravan approved safety pilots needed to fill the demand for the slots that will happen. Bucko was working on the possibility and stepping up, and perhaps Lee Fox will going forward. Both of these gents are of caliber and quality recognized. They both have to work within the Mooney Caravan system/structure/plan of work, however, where some issues have been presented as I understand it.
 But if, as you say, is is a simple matter of "stepping up" , then so be, I am sure it will happen. We have a number of qualified and competent people who attend the Summit who would love to see it happen and be a part of it happening. We have a number of people interested who can "pave the way" with airspace, logistics, politics, space and facilities. We have a number of highly trained professional formation pilots available who would be willing to assist, albeit their performance profile might be a bit more aggressive, in any way they can. 
This year's Mooney Summit formation flight demo will go a long way, in generating interest, public perception, and planning for Mooney Caravan approved training, albeit not able to count as currency because it would happen prior to Jan 1 for the following years Caravan as required by the Mooney Caravan.


Hi Mike,

Thanks for your enthusiasm.

I don't know what "issues have been presented." Bucko is a Caravan board member, Squadron Lead, and on our Ops Committee as a FAST carded Lead. He's also "Exhibit A" evidence of a person who stepped up and made it happen in a region. So, if he wants to make a clinic happen in FL, he is the right guy and knows how. We speak often and work on Caravan business together, and he's mentioned nothing to me about any "issue." If he needs Caravan organizational help, he will have it, and I am sure I will be one of his first calls. He already has Lee, who's our Safety officer and has the written materials (he drove a significant revision of our Guide this spring) and I am sure other qualified safeties will step up, as the regional commitments and their time permit. We are a dedicated group, and selfish--more form pilots mean more people for us to fly with!

Of COURSE we work within a common format and structure. That's what makes this work--it's all about the discipline. A newbie will be flying feet away from another aircraft. Newbie pilots have to show up having read and watched everything. They have to be doing ONLY form flying that weekend, and have no distractions. And it needs to be in an environment where there is adequate ground support, airspace, runways and tower help to support the activities.

I mentioned safeties are ALWAYS the limiting factor. But guess what? When you've got guys doing it for a few years and few hundred form flights, you'll DEVELOP them. And be patient, because the difference between doing simple two-ship Caravan flight stuff (and that is what it is, even though with three planes) and anything beyond that is much more complex than it seems. Many of us ... this pilot included ... have learned that the hard way!

Your Jan 1 fixation is misplaced. Read my post re element lead discretion. I am more conservative than Caravan policy: If you're in my element and we haven't flown together, we are flying together at KMSN or you're not in my element. Many element leads fly to KMSN with their wings, or find time to go up before OSH, which is becoming easier as we grow and pilots can find each other locally.

Practically speaking, no one goes to a clinic in the fall and does not fly form again until the Caravan...look at the other posts here. Once someone is safe to practice basic stationkeeping, all they need to do it is another form pilot! So we do it OFTEN! Why? It's FUN!!

Many of our Caravaners fly to KMSN in formation. Since 2011, I've flown from CA to KMSN and only once (when I flew Lead) did I have to worry about weather, navigate, or talk to ATC - because I was flying wing. And each flight was SAFER than had I been alone. We've had aircraft develop mechanicals (I did once too) and having teammates reduced stress and increased safety. THIS is also part of the camaraderie, and why we do it.

I'm glad to hear you have a "tent pole" volunteer to stand up and take on administration. It should be a local person because there will be a lot of admin coordinating and the goal is to identify and have interested local pilots show up and leave being able to practice together locally. Then they will build a local form group.

One caveat from a guy who's done a bunch of these: LOTS of people SAY they're interested. The proportion that actually show up is directly related to the commitment required BEFORE showing up. So when you say "there's interest" that's great, but form flying isn't for everyone. So keep in mind it's not like a Young Eagles day. Participants have to really prepare and show up ready to work.

So if someone just wants to see what it's like, go to a clinic as a passenger. Or just hitch a ride at a practice session, or ask any local form pilot to ride in the right seat. It's not for everyone, just like aerobatics or IMC isn't. So try a ride first to determine if the "interest" is strong enough to warrant a clinic.

Hope this is helpful, look forward to hearing from Bucko and Lee about it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.