Ovation book speeds

[mr.m]

Hi mooneyspace,

 

Quick question to M20R owners: Are the Ovation book speeds realistic or optimistic? For example 8000ft: 190kt TAS @75% ROP (no TKS, no A/C)?

 

I'm scouting for a new pair of wings and a pre-2000 Ovation is on top of my list. Mission (mostly 2 lightweight POB with cargo who enjoy going fast) and budget fit well, but I didn't have the chance to actually fly an M20R yet. 

 

Cheers!

[LANCECASPER]

I had a 310 hp 2000 Ovation for a year and a half (with A/C) and used to plan on 180 KTAS.

[Guest]

To get some real world values, take a bunch of N numbers from various sales site and enter them in Flightaware.com to see what people are really filing for speeds.  

My guess is 170-175 KTS.

Clarence

[StevenL757]

13 minutes ago, mr.m said:

Hi mooneyspace,

Quick question to M20R owners: Are the Ovation book speeds realistic or optimistic? For example 8000ft: 190kt TAS @75% ROP (no TKS, no A/C)?

I'm scouting for a new pair of wings and a pre-2000 Ovation is on top of my list. Mission (mostly 2 lightweight POB with cargo who enjoy going fast) and budget fit well, but I didn't have the chance to actually fly an M20R yet. 

Cheers!

Although the book speeds with that specific configuration are realistic, I plan for 170-175, and do so LOP.  With TKS, I usually subtract about 4-5 knots, and still regularly see between 170-174 true between 7k and 12k, again, LOP.

It would help if you could post some details about where you're located and a bit about your mission profile.  Depending on your location, someone living nearby would probably volunteer to take you for a ride for a coffee or burger.  Welcome aboard.

Steve

[mr.m]

Wow this was quick!

 

@M20Doc thx that is a good idea!

 

55 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Although the book speeds with that specific configuration are realistic, I plan for 170-175, and do so LOP.  With TKS, I usually subtract about 4-5 knots, and still regularly see between 170-174 true between 7k and 12k, again, LOP.

It would help if you could post some details about where you're located and a bit about your mission profile.  Depending on your location, someone living nearby would probably volunteer to take you for a ride for a coffee or burger.  Welcome aboard.

Steve

Hi Steven, thx!

I'm based in Australia south east Queensland, so probably not around the corner for most members. The mission includes 450 - 600nm trips with most airfields close to sea level. No high mountains around here so no real need for a turbo. Freezing levels are usually no issue. Needs to carry 2 POB plus a good amount of cargo. Both POB enjoy seeing high TAS numbers  I calculated a couple of W&B scenarios and found no problems. Mostly private use with the occasional business trip. I'm not yet IFR rated but it is work in progress.

I intend to operate LOP and understand that this will reduce TAS by a few knots compared to the book ROP numbers.

 

Follow up question: I just realized that I quoted the numbers from an Ovation II POH. If I understand correctly the M20R Gen2 comes with a faster Hartzell prop. Would a M20R Gen1 with an upgraded prop match the M20R Gen2  performance or are there additional changes to the airframe? 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by mr.m

[Little Dipper]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Although the book speeds with that specific configuration are realistic, I plan for 170-175, and do so LOP.  With TKS, I usually subtract about 4-5 knots, and still regularly see between 170-174 true between 7k and 12k, again, LOP.

It would help if you could post some details about where you're located and a bit about your mission profile.  Depending on your location, someone living nearby would probably volunteer to take you for a ride for a coffee or burger.  Welcome aboard.

Steve

I agree with what StevenL757 said,  but would add that I recently upgraded to the 310 hp IO-550 N and Hartzel Scimitar prop which gave me another 5 knots at the same power settings.

[Tx_Aggie]

I typically plan for 180 KTAS in the 10-12k range. Usually get within 2-5 knots depending on conditions. The best speeds will happen in the cooler months at higher altitudes. I've been at 11,000' at 230 kts over the ground. These machines are excellent at taking advantage of tailwinds.


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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard @mr.m. You hit on one of my favorite subjects...

 

Based on O1 numbers...   Without much planning... jump in and go...

ROP 175 (kts ground speeds) 15.5 gph, limited to 2500 rpm

LOP 165 (kts ground speeds) 12.5 gph, limited to 2500 rpm

 

Book numbers are modern and are much different than Mooney numbers produced (or missing) in the 1960s.  Like all NA engines, Weather and density altitude plays a major role in engine performance.

 

For best performance get the 310hp STC.  The STC has the latest updated book numbers for T/O and climb performance...

Performance increases quite a bit with the 2700 rpm redline.  

The O3 with TopProp cruises at 2550 (recomended).

T/O distance O1, 1200' decreased to 800’ with the 310hp STC lightly loaded...

The TopProp also comes in three flavors... thick, thin and composite...

Weight and balance is easily done with an app like WnB.  My O3 powered O1 has a UL over 1k#...

I got my IR a few weeks prior to getting my O.  It's a great plane for a non-pro flier...

Keep in mind, these numbers are from old crusty memories, I didn't look them up....

 

As usual, make sure the book numbers and your plane are matching, prior to using them.

 

Private Pilot thoughts only. Not a CFI...

let me know if I missed something.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

I typically plan 175 but that's lop w/ tks


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[Harry Wightman]

Mr M- Shoot me an email at turtle.harry@gmail.com & I'll pass on my mobile number. I'm a South Australian Ovation owner (1998) with similar flight profiles. Happy to chat about these marvellous time machines all day long.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Harry Wightman

[StevenL757]

11 hours ago, mr.m said:

Wow this was quick!

@M20Doc thx that is a good idea!

Hi Steven, thx!

I'm based in Australia south east Queensland, so probably not around the corner for most members. The mission includes 450 - 600nm trips with most airfields close to sea level. No high mountains around here so no real need for a turbo. Freezing levels are usually no issue. Needs to carry 2 POB plus a good amount of cargo. Both POB enjoy seeing high TAS numbers  I calculated a couple of W&B scenarios and found no problems. Mostly private use with the occasional business trip. I'm not yet IFR rated but it is work in progress.

I intend to operate LOP and understand that this will reduce TAS by a few knots compared to the book ROP numbers.

Follow up question: I just realized that I quoted the numbers from an Ovation II POH. If I understand correctly the M20R Gen2 comes with a faster Hartzell prop. Would a M20R Gen1 with an upgraded prop match the M20R Gen2  performance or are there additional changes to the airframe? 

So, all customizations aside, there is no performance difference between any model of Ovation from S/N 29-0001 to present.  All have either an IO550G5, G6, or G7 Platinum engine, all have a 3368# GW, and all have the same speeds by the book.  As LittleDipper pointed out, the IO550N is one engine option (2700RPM) for those ready to replace their 280HP IO550G (2500RPM) who have purchased the 310HP STC...which I did back in 2014.  I mated the Acclaim Type-S prop (F7498 Hartzell) to my factory reman IO550N at the same time, and saw speeds about 3 to 4 knots higher than before my cockpit upgrade last year (slowed a tad when I wound up with 5 new antennas hanging off the thing).  Without all that drag created and with a non-TKS airframe, expect to see ~5-6 knots faster.

So in short, yes, your Hartzell prop will match that of any version Ovation with a similar engine and prop - all other things being equal.  And remember - there is a difference between the F7693 DF-2 Hartzell and the F7498.  The former is a 74-inch prop weighing 80 pounds, and is what 90% of Ovations carrying the Hartzell have installed today.  The latter 7498 goes on the Acclaim Type-S conversions, is a 76-inch diameter prop, and weighs 73 pounds.  It not only shortens the takeoff ground roll like the 7693, but because of its overall thinner construction, is designed to give better cruise performance at altitude than the 7693.  You'll certainly notice the difference after flying with the older MacCauley, the 7693, and the 7498.  Both Hartzell options are the same price, so for the extra 5 knots "right out of the box", the choice was obvious.

Hope all this makes sense...let me know how the search goes and if you need any additional guidance.

Steve

[Jeff_S]

190 KTAS at 8000' on and ISO standard day? Maybe if you're really light and have the wings good and waxed up. But I'd say that's a stretch. At a 150NM air race last year I averaged 190.47 NMPH but that was at 1500' and 2600 RPM well ROP, probably about 22 GPH, so well above 75% power. (That average did include the takeoff climb and turns...on the straights I was seeing 192-193 TAS pretty consistently.)

I generally plan as do the other responses, 175 KTAS at normal cruise altitudes, burning 12.5-13.5 GPH LOP. It will vary a bit on any given day but not by much. 

[Robert C.]

12 minutes ago, Jeff_S said:

I generally plan as do the other responses, 175 KTAS at normal cruise altitudes, burning 12.5-13.5 GPH LOP. It will vary a bit on any given day but not by much. 

ditto

If I burn ~15-16 gph I'll see low 180s KTAS, not sure I've ever seen 190, but will admit I never tried either.

[carusoam]

13 hours ago, mr.m said:

1) Are the Ovation book speeds realistic or optimistic?

 

2) I'm scouting for a new pair of wings and a pre-2000 Ovation is on top of my list.

 

3) I didn't have the chance to actually fly an M20R yet.

I was in the same boat when I selected mine...

I spent a year looking at M20Js, a Missile, and an O...

By the book, they are very similar, with increasing power and volume...

I selected the O based on Book numbers.

In 2009, Prices of Os were close to where the high end Js had traded hands, just a coiuple of years earlier...

I selected it without even flying the plane, because my butt isn't that sensitive.

I had the plane flown to somebody qualified to know the plane and everything inside her was matching the book numbers. (PPI)

When it passed that myriad of tests, signatures and monies were exchanged for keys and log books.....

a couple of years later, the 310hp STC became a perfect next step...

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[201er]

14 hours ago, mr.m said:

(mostly 2 lightweight POB with cargo who enjoy going fast)

Be careful that it has the useful load to fit your mission. They aren't known for being able to take passengers AND fuel.

[carusoam]

Two POBs and 100gallons should work... UL is typically 1k+

It gets more challenging when the ship has AC, O2 and a FIKI system.

Wait til the kids graduate from college before adding these... 

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Jeff_S said:

190 KTAS at 8000' on and ISO standard day? Maybe if you're really light and have the wings good and waxed up. But I'd say that's a stretch. At a 150NM air race last year I averaged 190.47 NMPH but that was at 1500' and 2600 RPM well ROP, probably about 22 GPH, so well above 75% power. (That average did include the takeoff climb and turns...on the straights I was seeing 192-193 TAS pretty consistently.)

I generally plan as do the other responses, 175 KTAS at normal cruise altitudes, burning 12.5-13.5 GPH LOP. It will vary a bit on any given day but not by much. 

At 1500 and 190tas... what was you ias?  You must be deep into the yellow.

[PMcClure]

I have a 280 hp,  three blade prop (and A/C) Ovation and typically plan 180knots. I usually get 170-175 LOP and can get 180-185 ROP. Peak power, I have seen over 190 at altitude. Below 3000' and full power, 190 is very easy. 

170-180 is very common on XC flights. 

Paul 

[mr.m]

Again thanks a lot for everyone's input! 

[Ftlausa]

175 to 180 TAS at ROP at 9 to 11k.  182-83 TAS on occasion down low burning way too much gas.  

[Jeff_S]

22 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

At 1500 and 190tas... what was you ias?  You must be deep into the yellow.

Yes, I was pretty deep into the yellow arc but it was a nice, clear autumn day with a high pressure system over the whole region so there was not a breath of turbulence. We got pretty luck with that. In different conditions I would not have pushed it that hard for sure. On a 150 mile race with multiple turns such as this one there is no time to gain altitude.

[29-0363]

My experience as owner of 2005 Ovation GX2 29-0363 based in Adelaide South Australia, and former owner of a 1998 Ovation, both fitted with A/C and O2.

Always plan with the GX2 for:

9,000 Eastbound WOT 2,400 rpm 175 kts TAS 

8,000 Westbound WOT 2,400 rpm 177 kts TAS

Subtract 6-7 kts if operating LOP

The Hartzell prop delivers about 7 kts more compared to my earlier Ovation with the McCauley prop.

Edited August 8, 2017 by 29-0363

[N131MA]

My experience with my M20S, TKS, no A/C, 310HP conversion, with (the slower) 7692 Hartzell prop:

11000-12000, WOT, 5 degree LOP, 370F CHT@ISA, 170-175 kts TAS, depending on weight and OAT.

[jerryg324]

We all seem to be in about the same range speed wise...  Recent flight, but always in the same range...  This is LOP where I normally run unless I’m really in a hurry...  ROP will gain a solid 6 kt but cost you 2 gph...

[Will.iam]

Nice panel.