'Annual in lieu of Pre-Buy' - ?

[HRM]

On 7/31/2017 at 10:42 AM, mike_elliott said:

Sure, let Maxwell, Lasar, Topgun, Oasis, Daytona, AGL, DLK or other reputable MSC do an annual at the owners expense vs. a prebuy at yours. I wouldn't use the local guy to do it for obvious reasons.

I would add an offer to the shop to pay for any extra hours during the annual to check out the usual (pre-puy) suspects. Sounds fair to me.

...but absolutely do not use the owners shop, unless it is an MSC and reputable.

[Firebird2xc]

20 hours ago, paulie said:

Flight school airplane where they fly it like they rented it and a fed violation for maintenance? Wow they must have really screwed up for the feds to notice. I would run away from this plane. The one I just bought was sold within a year by the po because the pre buy was done by a mechanic that was in cahoots with the dealer. If I wasn't my own mechanic I would find a A&P I really trusted and bring him along for the pre buy and if that didn't satisfy the seller it would be good bye.

I pretty much nailed the coffin closed on this deal today.  I saw a different airplane, and hey- it had a current annual!  It had gobs of great things about it.  Copious, well documented and organized, complete logbooks... A CFII owner and former mechanic, etc, who had a genuine love of the airplane.  And hey- he put his money where his mouth is and took me up in it to show me it actually flew... and then agreed to have the local MSC look at the airplane for a PPI.  I made him an offer (conditional to the PPI) on the spot and he accepted.  Tomorrow I start paperwork, PPI prep, and nailing down the final financing issues.  Signed for my hangar today, too. 

"PERHAPS TODAY *IS* A GOOD DAY TO FLY!"

[Guest paulie]

Out of curiosity would you share the ad of the one you turned down? Good for you finding a better one. It pays to be patient.

[Dream to fly]

I would like to make a recommendation to the forum that a pinned link on how to purchase a Mooney be made.  Using information from Forum members that have credible proof of how a deal should go and how a bad one goes.  Everybody has an opinion and some maybe more apt on the laws and some more so on the art of the deal.  I for one wish I knew about this forum before I bought.  I thought I did it right,  I hired several APs and paid several times for a pre-buy inspection. I had skin in the game from the start paying for a local AP from ND to fly down with me to FLA and inspect and determine the planes value and I paid for a local AP in FLA to check the plane over.  All of which was the wrong thing to do.   Just my half a cent.

[Firebird2xc]

34 minutes ago, paulie said:

Out of curiosity would you share the ad of the one you turned down? Good for you finding a better one. It pays to be patient.

I won't know for sure that the airplane is a 'better one' until we open the cowling/panels... here's to hoping.

This is the airplane I've decided to pass on.  It LOOKS nice, but it's got some questionable maintenance history, relatively high airframe time, and a fairly pushy CFI salesman.  He started blowing up my phone with texts at 1 am last night... (I was still up, but still... really?)
At surface this airplane looks really nice, but when I looked harder at its history it seems like it's overpriced.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2267929&s-type=aircraft&s-seq=1&s-lvl=4

The airplane I like now is considerably cheaper, but we'll see if that holds true once we start an inspection.  I only passingly flipped through the logbooks today.  I also just found out about Lycoming's mandatory SB 632.  THAT gives one serious pause...

[Guest paulie]

I see he's hedging in the ad. One example "no MAJOR damage history" I guess it could be a matter of opinion what constitutes "major". Ads like these make me suspicious.

Good luck with looking, there's always another one for sale.

[Firebird2xc]

1 hour ago, paulie said:

I see he's hedging in the ad. One example "no MAJOR damage history" I guess it could be a matter of opinion what constitutes "major". Ads like these make me suspicious.

Good luck with looking, there's always another one for sale.

There's an obvious bit of 'damage history' from shoddy maintenance back in the day- reported in aviationdb.com.   I think this first airplane I was looking at was lipstick on a pig in the end.  Shiny paint, hidden problems.  Thanks- I think I already found a better airplane.

[N9201A]

On 7/31/2017 at 1:35 PM, eman1200 said:

I'm curious why you say "at owners cost".....I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just curious why you say that.  is it just in case the deal falls through? 

Depends on drafting, but why would an owner subject his bird to being held hostage righteously by a mechanic whom the buyer has decided not to pay?  I have seen too many of these scenarios go south.  If you own the aircraft, control the process.  

[N9201A]

On 7/31/2017 at 1:35 PM, eman1200 said:

I'm curious why you say "at owners cost".....I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just curious why you say that.  is it just in case the deal falls through? 

Depends on drafting, but why would an owner subject his bird to being held hostage righteously by a mechanic whom the buyer has decided not to pay?  I have seen too many of these scenarios go south.  If you own the aircraft, control the process.  

[N9201A]

One important point is that, unlike an "annual," there is no statutory/accepted definition of "pre-buy."  Kind of like in loan biz when they say "pre-qualified" and kinda want you to think it is the same as "approved."  This gets folks in trouble when they don't have a clear definition agreed to...

[RobertGary1]

On 8/1/2017 at 9:47 PM, Firebird2xc said:

I won't know for sure that the airplane is a 'better one' until we open the cowling/panels... here's to hoping.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2267929&s-type=aircraft&s-seq=1&s-lvl=4

 

How does he says its ADS-B compliant? He claims the 430 is ADS-B compliant but has a Garmin 327 transponder. 

 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

12 minutes ago, N9201A said:

Depends on drafting, but why would an owner subject his bird to being held hostage righteously by a mechanic whom the buyer has decided not to pay?  I have seen too many of these scenarios go south.  If you own the aircraft, control the process.  

I have heard some horror stories of buyers backing out and leaving the owner with the bill for the pre-buy. Since the shop is holding the plane the seller is stuck. I'd be very suspicious as well and insist that the shop is paid ahead of time.

-Robert

[Cooperd0g]

My purchase agreement is written so that I, the buyer, pay for the pre-buy, but that if the planes fails and I back out of the deal, the owner pays the shop fees. But I also am putting a $5,000 deposit in escrow that I only get back if the plane fails the pre-buy. Both of us have skin in the game, but both are also protected. 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, Cooperd0g said:

My purchase agreement is written so that I, the buyer, pay for the pre-buy, but that if the planes fails and I back out of the deal, the owner pays the shop fees. But I also am putting a $5,000 deposit in escrow that I only get back if the plane fails the pre-buy. Both of us have skin in the game, but both are also protected. 

What is a "fail". Every good Mooney out there could have a couple pages of write ups. Is it just airworthiness items? Just items that would prevents an annual?

-Robert

[N9201A]

8 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I have heard some horror stories of buyers backing out and leaving the owner with the bill for the pre-buy. Since the shop is holding the plane the seller is stuck. I'd be very suspicious as well and insist that the shop is paid ahead of time.

-Robert

Yes, this is why the Owner should control the process.  Then just pay the shop out of the sales proceeds. As someone else suggested, if the "prebuy" -- whatever THAT is -- is in conjunction with an annual, worst case Owner has a fresh annual from a shop Owner trusts.  Of course, Owner DID have an escrow, right?  

[Cooperd0g]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

What is a "fail". Every good Mooney out there could have a couple pages of write ups. Is it just airworthiness items? Just items that would prevents an annual?

-Robert

Pretty much. But the owner has the option to fix things too if they are fixable. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Cooperd0g

[Firebird2xc]

17 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

How does he says its ADS-B compliant? He claims the 430 is ADS-B compliant but has a Garmin 327 transponder. 

 

-Robert

 

I'm not certain, but I believe he meant that the GPS has WAAS which makes it compliant for providing GPS signal to ADS-B...  A technically and a misleading one but not technically false.

I'd advise against buying this airplane anyways.  The seller was pushy and a bit obnoxious when I was speaking with them.  Also, it was a flight school airplane for about five years, where the airplane had a highly suspicious SDR from a maintenance event- and that maintenance department has since been violated and fined...

 

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Except for buyers and sellers aircraft sales transactions generally go smoothly. 

[jgarrison]

1 hour ago, Firebird2xc said:

 

  19 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

How does he says its ADS-B compliant? He claims the 430 is ADS-B compliant but has a Garmin 327 transponder. 

1 hour ago, Firebird2xc said:

I'm not certain, but I believe he meant that the GPS has WAAS which makes it compliant for providing GPS signal to ADS-B...  A technically and a misleading one but not technically false.

GDL-88 Is a full blown ADS-B Transceiver

[Firebird2xc]

10 hours ago, jgarrison said:

 

  19 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

How does he says its ADS-B compliant? He claims the 430 is ADS-B compliant but has a Garmin 327 transponder. 

GDL-88 Is a full blown ADS-B Transceiver

Ah- that's it.  Thank you.

[smccray]

On 8/14/2017 at 11:56 PM, N9201A said:

Yes, this is why the Owner should control the process.  Then just pay the shop out of the sales proceeds. As someone else suggested, if the "prebuy" -- whatever THAT is -- is in conjunction with an annual, worst case Owner has a fresh annual from a shop Owner trusts.  Of course, Owner DID have an escrow, right?  

Contracts / requisitions / purchase orders.... who cares.  The client is the guy (or gal) paying the bill.  If I'm sending a plane in for prebuy then I'm paying the bill.  

On 8/14/2017 at 5:56 PM, Cooperd0g said:

My purchase agreement is written so that I, the buyer, pay for the pre-buy, but that if the planes fails and I back out of the deal, the owner pays the shop fees. But I also am putting a $5,000 deposit in escrow that I only get back if the plane fails the pre-buy. Both of us have skin in the game, but both are also protected. 

As a seller I wouldn't sign this contract.  I maintain my plane well and take it to a top service center.  I would never sign up for a $1000 bill from a mechanic of a buyers choice where you can walk away for any reason.  Questionable maintenance history?  sure I'd try and put that contract in place.  Well maintained airplane?  never going to get that agreement (or I take it out of your deposit that's non-refundable).

[N9201A]

Yes, from the shop perspective, the client is the guy paying the bill. Which is why if you're a seller, you can stuck if buyer does not pay the bill, whatever the reason, or if there is a dispute between shop and buyer. Buyers bail for lots of reasons, and all of them feel justified about it.

Doesn't help seller if your plane is in hock. Don't let buyer run process unless you've got adequate security or just like painful, completely avoidable problems.

And this has nothing to do with trustworthiness. You wouldn't buy it without an inspection of some type, right? So it's not about trust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

Rule 1 - evaluating the seller is as important as evaluating the airplane. 

Write a contract to buy that clearly spells out the expectations following the pre-buy. 

Ensure that the shop understands the difference between a pre-buy and an inspection.

Worst case scenario for the buyer is the loss of the deposit. Worst case scenario for the seller is the buyer disappears and skips out on the shop bill, in which case it's paid out of the seller's deposit.

[RobertGary1]

40 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Worst case scenario for the buyer is the loss of the deposit. Worst case scenario for the seller is the buyer disappears and skips out on the shop bill, in which case it's paid out of the seller's deposit.

And the shop breaks all the backings for your inspection panels using an electric screwdriver to ram the screws back in. Next annual you spend an extra 4 hours replacing backings.

-Robert

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

And the shop breaks all the backings for your inspection panels using an electric screwdriver to ram the screws back in. Next annual you spend an extra 4 hours replacing backings.

An MSC did that? I don't think it's the fault of the electric screw driver.