Firebird2xc Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I'm speaking to someone about buying a Mooney. Working on first looks at the airplane. The annual expired at the end of June, and there's about 30 day wait to get in to annual with the local guy where the plane is located. The guy I talked to said the owner wants to "do an annual with the sale in lieu of a pre-buy" because the owner has "been snake-bit by pre-buy inspections before..." This seems a little suspicious to me. Granted, as the agent said, some folks don't want a Mooney shaman looking at the airplane and coming back with a million squawks over minor things with only maybe 1 or 2 being airworthiness issues... Still- my spidey-sense is tingling. It's a 6000+ hour airframe. I'd love feedback from anybody who has any to offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Sure, let Maxwell, Lasar, Topgun, Oasis, Daytona, AGL, DLK or other reputable MSC do an annual at the owners expense vs. a prebuy at yours. I wouldn't use the local guy to do it for obvious reasons. If the plane is as good as the "guy you talked to", he wont have any problem letting a pro look at it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 yep, at his expense. what I was hoping to do on the the plane I just looked at was have the PPI done, finalize the deal, then turn turn PPI into an annual at my expense. but it doesn't look like I'll be able to do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 As a buyer you should want to know everything you can find out about the airplane. It is not hard to find stories about multi-thousand dollars annuals for a new plane owner the first time he takes it to maintenance. Call it a PPI or an annual or anything else you want. It is always better to have someone very familiar and knowledgeable look for the problems. Don't be surprised, If the owner is balking there is something he doesn't want you to see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Very few shops would I consider allowing to do an annual in lieu of prebuy. They aren't the same... airworthy is a low bar frankly. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
211º Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 This might cause some hackles to rise... I've purchased two airplanes and passed on a formal PPI both times. I got a gut feel from both of the owners that they were good people. That went a long way for me. The next step was to have the cash that might have been used for a PPI in the bank because (well) things. Things did happen, but my (again) gut feel was that things would have occurred regardless of the name on the title. It has worked out well both times (knock on wood), I've spent a little money afterward, and got to know my new plane well in the process. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 57 minutes ago, Firebird2xc said: Granted, as the agent said, some folks don't want a Mooney shaman looking at the airplane and coming back with a million squawks over minor things with only maybe 1 or 2 being airworthiness issues... That is exactly what I would want. If I were buying a plane out of annual, a PPI/annual at a known MSC would be a requirement. I would want the seller to pay for airworthiness items, and I would take the other items under advisement to determine whether or not I would buy the plane. Then either have them done during annual or schedule them up. I believe @gsxrpilot is keeping a list of purchases that went sideways which all have some common threads. Poor quality PPI/PPI done by non-Mooney mechanic/no PPI shows up in some of them. If the requirement is to use the local guy, walk away. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, 211º said: This might cause some hackles to rise... I've purchased two airplanes and passed on a formal PPI both times. I got a gut feel from both of the owners that they were good people. That went a long way for me. The next step was to have the cash that might have been used for a PPI in the bank because (well) things. Things did happen, but my (again) gut feel was that things would have occurred regardless of the name on the title. It has worked out well both times (knock on wood), I've spent a little money afterward, and got to know my new plane well in the process. Don't disagree with you at all. Following your gut has worked for you more than once. I had the same feeling about my plane, but went with a PPI as my prior purchase was a disaster. Turned out to be unnecessary, but I slept better. The OP is saying his spidey-sense is tingling. His gut is telling him something different that yours told you. If he really wants to pursue the purchase and go against his gut, I think some type of inspection is in order. And if a plane is out of annual, sounds like I would need an annual to be able to fly it home. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
211º Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 minute ago, Oldguy said: The OP is saying his spidey-sense is tingling. Yep - that would make me want to walk away - was trying to say that is a positive way. Cheers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 There is a reason the annual inspection expired. It may be nothing and it turn out to be a great bird, or it may be consistent with previous maintenance practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gitmo234 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Short answer: NO! If he's bitten snake-bitten by a pre-buy that means something was wrong. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 1 hour ago, 211º said: This might cause some hackles to rise... I've purchased two airplanes and passed on a formal PPI both times. I got a gut feel from both of the owners that they were good people. That went a long way for me. The next step was to have the cash that might have been used for a PPI in the bank because (well) things. Things did happen, but my (again) gut feel was that things would have occurred regardless of the name on the title. It has worked out well both times (knock on wood), I've spent a little money afterward, and got to know my new plane well in the process. Prepurchasing the owner is as important as a PPI on the plane. It will tell tales of the care the plane has received. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Prepurchasing the owner is as important as a PPI on the plane. It will tell tales of the care the plane has received. And part of assessing the owner is ideally getting a test flight with the owner. Observe how he/she flies as much as how the airplane does...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I would buy GS's O if he is willing to sell... +1 Good owner, likes his plane. +1 PPI can cover some expensive items that are not AW issues. IFR flight capability is one of those important things. If you paid for it, you want to receive it... PPIs can be multi-leveled. Ticking off easy boxes first, working towards more complex expensive boxes next. If the PPI fails early on, no need to pay for a full annual... Everybody is different... my plane cost as much as a house. I wanted to make sure everything was working as discussed in the ad. DMax did the PPI. started with an IFR flight, using all the nav com equipment during the flight... last thing was to get an annual. New to me plane, ready to go, for a year.... I was different with my first plane. The local mechanic was in charge of doing a quick check for anything rusty or falling off... that plane cost as much as a car.... There are no standards for PPIs. The pilot is in charge of knowing what he wants to get out of it... One of the greatest values when buying a machine... is to know the owner... if you build a small relationship, you may get every book, manual, paper, thing, hint, advice, parts, headset, advice, conversation, phone call, email, that comes with a good plane. Good luck moving forwards. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTaylor Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 I will give a different perspective. The owner is just trying to get the aircraft back in annual. By requiring the annual rather than pre-buy he is guaranteed that the plane will be in annual no matter what happens. The main issue for the buyer is what are the details of who pays for what? How much will it cost him to walk away if he is not comfortable, etc? Has the price been discounted for the lack of annual (~$3K) or is the buyer picking up the difference in cost between the PPI and the annual? As long as there is a clear agreement on who pays for what and you can figure out how to get the aircraft to a mechanic (ferry permit?) I don't see any real issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream to fly Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 The only way to buy an aircraft in my opinion is to have it go thru an annual inspection at the owners cost by a Manufacturer specific repair center. Otherwise buyer beware. You could end up with the headache I have. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eman1200 Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, Dream to fly said: The only way to buy an aircraft in my opinion is to have it go thru an annual inspection at the owners cost by a Manufacturer specific repair center. Otherwise buyer beware. You could end up with the headache I have. I'm curious why you say "at owners cost".....I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just curious why you say that. is it just in case the deal falls through? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream to fly Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 minutes ago, eman1200 said: I'm curious why you say "at owners cost".....I'm not saying I agree or disagree, just curious why you say that. is it just in case the deal falls through? The owner in my opinion should be making the aircraft airworthy. That doesn't mean he should be fixing cup holders but what is airworthy is on them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Yep, I'm keeping a list... You don't want to be on my list. Annual or Pre-buy really doesn't make a difference in my thinking. The difference is WHO is doing whatever the inspection/evaluation is called. For the shops already listed, (Maxwell, Lasar, Topgun, Oasis, Daytona, AGL, DLK), I'd be happy to drop the plane off and wait for a phone call. I know that if the plane is no good, I'll get a call pretty quickly, if the plane is a good find, I'll get a call at the end of the process with a list of squawks and a recommendation to buy. I took my first Mooney to Maxwell for a Pre-Buy. Don called me a week later and said he was sending the report. He said it's long and expensive, but I really like this airplane and you should buy it. He took the time to talk through it with me and suggest what the seller should pay for and what I should do after. I struck a final deal with the seller and owned the plane 24 hours later. Don had it another week and I enjoyed one of the best M20C's anywhere in the country for the next 400+ trouble free hours. Understand this whole airplane ownership thing is a crap shoot at the high stakes table. And no inspection is a guarantee of anything. But going without an inspection from a "Mooney Guy" who knows what to look for (not because he's a seasoned A&P) but because he's worked on hundreds of Mooneys... and who understands he's working for YOU... is placing a bet without looking at your cards. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream to fly Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: Yep, I'm keeping a list... You don't want to be on my list. You said I can be on the cover... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 5 hours ago, Firebird2xc said: This seems a little suspicious to me. Granted, as the agent said, some folks don't want a Mooney shaman looking at the airplane and coming back with a million squawks over minor things with only maybe 1 or 2 being airworthiness issues... Um.... no. If that's the seller's motivation then stay away. My airplane is in great condition- for an airplane with 5000 hrs on the ticker and for the price. If a buyer wants a perfect airplane it's easy to find- buy a new airplane. There's not a single used airplane out there that's perfect, and any buyer who expects that isn't reasonable. A buyer should expect an airworthy airplane and should have knowledge of anything else on the airplane. If I'm the buyer, I want to know exactly what I'm buying, and if it's an issue of an A&P nit picking, that's my business as the buyer. If I'm looking at a plane and I see that the cupholder is broken, then that's something I should know before I send that plane to prebuy. The 6000 hrs on the airframe by itself wouldn't worry me. If the seller is asking you as the buyer to schedule an annual inspection with his mechanic on the field... why would you as someone other than the owner requisition an annual inspection? I'll send an airplane out for a pre-buy to a mechanic of my choice. As a seller I would be somewhat reluctant to send my plane to an unknown mechanic, but if you're looking at a reputable MSC that wouldn't be an issue. I would closely look at the logs for pencil whipped annuals over the last couple of years. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Strange that none of the most highly renowned names in this thread ever post any advise to help anyone, let alone the cheer leaders. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Dream to fly said: The only way to buy an aircraft in my opinion is to have it go thru an annual inspection at the owners cost by a Manufacturer specific repair center. Otherwise buyer beware. You could end up with the headache I have. I'm afraid you will have very few sellers accept those terms. As a seller I certainly would not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
201er Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Look, it depends on the kind of airplane you are buying. If you're looking at older, cheaper, more run down airplanes, of course it's going to have more issues. That's why it's cheaper and also explains why the owner doesn't want it looked at too closely. If a seller is asking for top dollar, then the seller can expect a meticulous pr buy and should feel safe that it won't uncover anything major. You get what you pay for. There's no way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 45 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Strange that none of the most highly renowned names in this thread ever post any advise to help anyone, let alone the cheer leaders. Clarence Clarence, you would be at the very very top of my list if we could just get you americanized.... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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