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Bendix/King news on AvWeb about KI-300


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12 hours ago, peevee said:

The ki300 costs less than installing the Aspen autopilot interface if the current pricing holds at 4300 or whatever it is.  I have been quoted over 5k to add the ea100

I think you need to find a new shop. The quotes I received were around $3.5-3.7k to install the ea100 and a 2000 system with the external battery.  From an earlier post the ki300 will list in the 6k-7k range. Still a good value if you need a backup AI as well. 

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1 hour ago, Godfather said:

I think you need to find a new shop. The quotes I received were around $3.5-3.7k to install the ea100 and a 2000 system with the external battery.  From an earlier post the ki300 will list in the 6k-7k range. Still a good value if you need a backup AI as well. 

Well, one shop was bevan rebille in Wichita and the other was autopilots Central in Tulsa. So I take their word on it. Yours is also probably considering the panel is apart for the upgrade. We already have 2 Aspen screens installed.

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Too many posts to follow on the KI 300 but from what I read, we are all sick and tired of pulling the KI 256 every couple of years because it decides to take a dump.  I think I am in the same boat as many on this thread and looking for solutions that will eliminate the vacuum system completely, AND drive our auto pilots...KFC 200 in my case.  I have looked at all the options out there including Aspen, Garmin, etc. and to my knowledge nothing replaces the KI 256 with digital AI AND drives our legacy auto pilots.  I should say, nothing out there that doesn't require another box of some sort.

I spent about an hour with the King peeps at Oshkosh last week and was told the KI 300 would ship in October...but they have been sharing similar stories since 2015.  The price quoted was under $5k, at least that is what the King rep said.  He also shared a digital controller or computer or whatever you call it, that replaces the original King controller but adds altitude pre-select which would be pretty awesome.

So any additional feedback or opinions around this topic would be appreciated.

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IMO it is still good money after bad...you'll still need an HSI replacement, still have the expensive KC295 analog computer, and the very expensive servos. The GFC500 looks very compelling with a pair of G5's relative to the cost of the KI300 and a few more repair trips to the autopilot shop.

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2 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Im with Peter on this one.  The potentially dodgy things in our panels are the laser, mechanical,  gyro bits, ie the AI and HSI.  The AP is solid state, albeit old solid state but solid state.  If BK or Garmin come up with a piece of glass with ADHR etc with , analog / digital output to our existing analog APs at a price less than basic Aspen then they will find a LOT of customers.  

The KAP/KFC150 are digital flight control systems. In fact, they are among the first digital autopilots for certified airplanes. Digital circuits count pulses of electricity in contrast to analog which measure current. Therefore digital are very precise and reproducible. Analog are not. You can buy corn by the dozen or by the pound.  A dozen ears of corn is always 12 count. But if you want a dozen by the pound you will not always get the exactly 12. (Now... I do buy silver queen jersey corn at the farm by the dozen and get 14...but I digress!! :))

Digital systems can perform math very precisely and reproducibly and store information in microchips and memory chips. They can be programed very easily to peform different functions. They can be programmed to monitor themselves and check their math! Which is what the test does in the beginning of each flight. 

My point is let's not be so fast to rip out an autopilot for another without knowing what we have. I sense that some people may not know what they have and jump on a passing bandwagon. I agree a new Garmin autopilot is perfectly appropriate for some airplanes that don't have one or have an analog one. However, I'm not so sure I agree that there is benefit to take out a digital one for another. 

Remove the analog vacuum attitude and give the digital autopilot a digital AHRS for its attitude reference instead! It's a no brainer! 

 

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

The KAP/KFC150 are digital flight control systems. In fact they are among the first digital autopilots for certified airplanes. Digital circuits count pulses of electricity in contrast to analog which measure current. Therefore digital are very precise and reproducible. Analog are not. You can buy corn by the dozen or by the pound.  A dozen ears of corn is always 12 count. But if you want a dozen by the pound you will not always get the exactly 12. (Now... I do buy silver queen jersey corn at the farm by the dozen and get 14...but I digress!! :))

Digital systems can perform math very precisely and reproducibly and store information in microchips and memory chips. They can be programed very easily to peform different functions. They can be programmed to monitor themselves and check their math! Which is what the test does in the beginning of each flight. 

My point is let's not be so fast to rip out an autopilot for another without knowing what we have. I sense that some people may not know what they have and jump on a passing bandwagon. I agree a new Garmin autopilot is perfectly appropriate for some airplanes who don't have one or who have an analog one. I'm not so sure I agree that there is benefit to take out a digital one for another. 

Remove the analog vacuum attitude and give the digital autopilot a digital AHRS for its attitude reference instead! It's a no brainer! 

 

The KAP/KFC 150 were designed when King was at the top of their game and they were cutting edge when they came out. If they are aligned properly they still fly on rails. However, if you want to be happy with one of these, don't ever let a shop touch it if they are not experts at it. Find one really good shop that knows these intimately and let one person get it right. That usually means that person has worked there for years and it goes without saying that they have all of the King test boxes. Going from shop to shop, letting a new guy learn on your autopilot trying to get it right will frustrate you to no end. There are a lot of people willing to take a stab at it but usually they induce more problems than you had to start.

The airplane I have now only has 660TT (on a 25 year old airplane). On the Mooney invoice from 1993 the KFC150 was $26,400 (with ALT pre-select) at the time - a small fortune. But I can't imagine the airplane without it. I have had STEC's in Pipers that I've owned and there is no comparison. I nicknamed the STEC "S-Turn" since that's how it seemed to fly an ILS compared to the King.

Other than a King shop replacing the KI256 a couple times before I got it (which is definitely the weak point on this autopilot), and me having the KG102A overhauled, the logs show that the autopilot has never had any work done. That's probably why I am happy with it since not many well meaning people have touched it. It flies beautifully. I have no intention of replacing mine, but after the KI-300 is out for awhile and it turns out to be reliable, I might think about replacing the KI-256 and pulling the vacuum system.

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Yeah, what @LANCECASPER said. When I was shopping for a 252, I was specifically looking for one with the KFC150 with Altitude Pre-select. That was the most expensive, top of the line option 30 years ago. But today, the price difference between a Mooney with this setup or one with a KAP150 no pre-select, is negligible. So why not get the top of the line model? It also meant that I was confident to replace the one weak link in the system, the KI256 with an Aspen and EA100. The KFC150 is a good autopilot to keep and to maintain.

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2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The KAP/KFC 150 were designed when King was at the top of their game and they were cutting edge when they came out. If they are aligned properly they still fly on rails. However, if you want to be happy with one of these, don't ever let a shop touch it if they are not experts at it. Find one really good shop that knows these intimately and let one person get it right. That usually means that person has worked there for years and it goes without saying that they have all of the King test boxes. Going from shop to shop, letting a new guy learn on your autopilot trying to get it right will frustrate you to no end. There are a lot of people willing to take a stab at it but usually they induce more problems than you had to start.

The airplane I have now only has 660TT (on a 25 year old airplane). On the Mooney invoice from 1993 the KFC150 was $26,400 (with ALT pre-select) at the time - a small fortune. But I can't imagine the airplane without it. I have had STEC's in Pipers that I've owned and there is no comparison. I nicknamed the STEC "S-Turn" since that's how it seemed to fly an ILS compared to the King.

Other than a King shop replacing the KI256 a couple times before I got it (which is definitely the weak point on this autopilot), and me having the KG102A overhauled, the logs show that the autopilot has never had any work done. That's probably why I am happy with it since not many well meaning people have touched it. It flies beautifully. I have no intention of replacing mine, but after the KI-300 is out for awhile and it turns out to be reliable, I might think about replacing the KI-256 and pulling the vacuum system.

I'm curious - where does my kfc200 fit relative to that discussion?

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21 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

KFC-200 is a older analog remote mounted units.
KFC-150 is a newer digital all-in-one unit.

Both can support Altitude pre-select but only the 150 can support vertical speed.

Thanks.

In any case, if a GFC replacement comes along I am inclined to modernize just for the sake of the cost of repairing the old servos, the old computer, the old 256, all quickly becomes competitive with the new price structuring of this new breed of Digital autopilots, not even including the new full featured safety features.

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Thanks.
In any case, if a GFC replacement comes along I am inclined to modernize just for the sake of the cost of repairing the old servos, the old computer, the old 256, all quickly becomes competitive with the new price structuring of this new breed of Digital autopilots, not even including the new full featured safety features.


It's hard to not think this way. I feel the same way. But the moment you entertain upgrading everything, then you open yourself to considering for example the Garmin alternative.


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Looking to the future...

the control systems are one part sensor system and one part computer system and one part response generated by the servos....

when intercepting a radial or an altitude speed of the system's response is critical to the operation...

The KAP 150 uses the pilot's finger to identify crossing the desired altitude.  The computer calculates leveling off at that altitude, and the servos do a pretty good job of not overshooting too much and come right back to the target.

Getting altitude control and specific vertical speed is an add on device (or button pushing without a display).  Important for memory challenged or multitasking challenged individuals.

What would be nice is a faster acting sensor system, and a faster acting computer system, and an even more robust servo system.

The existing system is great, but 30 year old technology...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, gsengle said:

But the moment you entertain upgrading everything, then you open yourself to considering for example the Garmin alternative.

 

I don't understand.  Please explain.

also we might have synonyms or trio possibilities.

l would be easily persuaded with the extra options... straight and level button, and esp envelope protection that stays active even when hand flying.  And brushless motor servos.

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Both products look great, but they missed the price point, I believe...

they'd sell a ton of these things if they were priced the same as a G5.   2-3K each (ki300 and autopilot head) would have these flyingoff the shelves.  At 7k and 10K they will only sell onsey twoseys... typical GA... not thinking about the cheaper light pistons, focusing on the 200K+ airframes and basing the percentages on that.  It will be no wonder when they stop selling these units because nobody is paying up for them.

 

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I don't understand.  Please explain.
also we might have synonyms or trio possibilities.
l would be easily persuaded with the extra options... straight and level button, and esp envelope protection that stays active even when hand flying.  And brushless motor servos.


If you have a king system, and face replacing the ki256 when it breaks again, you could use their ki300 and call it a day. Doesn't solve for any hsi issues but let's leave that aside.

Now you think about replacing the king autopilot at considerable expense. The moment you do this, at that price point why wouldn't you consider all the other solutions, like the dynon hdx when it comes available, or the Garmin suite with new autopilot?


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1 hour ago, gsengle said:

 


If you have a king system, and face replacing the ki256 when it breaks again, you could use their ki300 and call it a day. Doesn't solve for any hsi issues but let's leave that aside.

Now you think about replacing the king autopilot at considerable expense. The moment you do this, at that price point why wouldn't you consider all the other solutions, like the dynon hdx when it comes available, or the Garmin suite with new autopilot?


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Right - I AM thinking about HDX, and the GFC500/G5 combo, or... the G3X presumably, and yes I know those would push a lot more than repairing a KI256.  But I have been holding off for the last 2 or 3 years upgrading the panel anticipating that soon, what I really want would come, and .... it is ALMOST here.   Now I am hoping my KI256 doesn't go kaput while I am waiting for those STC's to come for us.  I'm not one to fly around with broken equipment waiting for the next big thing, so I won't, but it sure would be a bummer to put yet another 3k into a repair of my kfc200 when maybe what i really want would be just 2 or 3 months off...but you never know.  Meanwhile, its all in working order, knock on wood.

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