Should I grab this abandoned Mooney?

[M20FanJesse]

 

I need your all's advice on something. But first, a little backstory. Rick, the airport mechanic and I went to a hangar and used a pair of bolt cutters to get into this hangar, where this Mooney 201 sat, and hasn't seen the light of day in a long time. The owner, a 98 year old gentleman, didn't want to sell it after being unable to fly years ago and so it sat in this hangar since. The family (son and daughter) want to get rid of it finally. Keys are lost, but they are looking. From what I can see the interior is in great shape too.

So the next day, Rick and I pulled it out and go gave it a bath. The thing looks like it just came off the showroom floor! Under all that dirt was an incredibly clean 201. 

 

Amazingly, Rick was the original mechanic on the plane, and he still had the record for when he last worked on it...28 years ago in 1989! So as far as he knows, it hasn't flown or seen the outside of that hangar in nearly as long. 

 

Now to my question. Obviously it would need an engine, and the tanks sealed, but should I make an offer on this? Rick would be able to get me a great deal on it for me, and help me with all the maintenance, and have a place for me to keep as long as I wanted. With me being 24, funds aren't abundant, but I think over some time, I could make it owning something like this work especially as my t shirt sales have really taken off recently (pun intended), getting a raise at my job, and with having the luxury of having A&P friends who want to see me succeed in me owning my dream airplane (hense the username) and saving up a good amount of money on my growing t-shirt empire that would otherwise go to my instrument rating and on. Would it be a good idea to grab it, and work on getting it flying over the next couple of years? 

 

How much do you think its worth? How much would need to be put in to get it flying do you imagine? If anything, enjoy the pics! 

 

Edit* Checked the oil. Full at 8 quarts and looked like it was put in yesterday.

Jesse

Edited July 26, 2017 by M20FanJesse

[gsengle]

Googling the registration looks like the tail number has been taken by another airplane?

Second, I know the concern of the group will be that the family gets a fair price and isn't taken advantage of in their possible ignorance.

That said if it has sat that long that does indeed devalue it quite a bit as it may need a lot of work.

Personally I think it should be flying again, and maybe the family feels the same way and wants you to be the one to make it happen... be honest with them and maybe approach it this way....

I'm willing to buy the airplane for x, as there is probably a lot of work to make it flyable again. I can save you all the time of marketing it or a possible brokers fee and you'll make a young man very happy who will treasure and appreciate it and make it fly again. I can't promise that you might not make more from someone else, but I think mine is a fair offer. And make a fair offer...


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[nels]

Wow! I'm sure it will need some money spent on it but it sure looks like a great plane! Buy it.

[RLCarter]

3 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Googling the registration looks like the tail number has been taken by another airplane?

FAA registration expires the end of this month. If I were you it would already be in my hangar, love a good hangar find so get get it going

[M20FanJesse]

1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I would have salivated over this at your age, Jesse. I still do a little bit, as a matter of fact!  I say go for it but only because you have preestablished relationship(s) of trust with A&P(s) who are willng to help you. Assume the engine and fuel tanks are bad in your offer and plan to spend 5 or 10K on various squawks that are impossible at this point to anticipate.  I like gsengle's approach above to dealing with the family. What is it you Millennials like to say?  YOLO!

Jim

I've been salivating over these for literally 20 years! I have baby pictures of me in my grandpas mooney with a mooney shirt on haha. It was my idea to clean it up and i spent a good two hours on the outside. Yolo is correct haha. I do understand squawks might come in thick and heavy

[Godfather]

I would say go for it!  You have everything working in your favor. I'd put a deposit on it if it was a fair price and pay to have someone very knowledgeable with Mooney aircraft to take a look at it. What's a fair price...I have no idea. 

[Skates97]

I think it's a great opportunity. Even if it takes you some time (few years) to get it where you want it you do have time. I seem to recall another young guy @Raptor05121 who bought a plane, put in the sweat equity, and has done a lot of flying and made a lot of memories. He's going through some headaches with his exhaust currently, but I don't think he regrets buying his bird.

Maybe you can be a student of his and engage in "Raptor Methodology."

[tigers2007]

Buy it, flip it, and get a C model. Is this Continental powered? Here is Corona's price list. The mechanical costs could add up ridiculously fast like @bluehighwayflyer noted. Not to mention the hangar costs out there...  Maybe just borescope it and pray? Engine pickled?

My D model set me back about $15k for the prebuy-annual with some toys added in. I just dumped like $25k into some fancy new avionics. Oh, I didn't even mention the acquisition cost... plus mine has 2200hrs on the motor.

[carusoam]

Fully run-out, no paint, UV beaten, M20Js with no radios are bought for around 50amu...

Fully cleaned up, operational M20Js cost over 100AMU...

While you are only living once, read up on Alex's endless thread of what it is like to start an endless project.

If you are like Alex, get the living on!

Realistically,  a PPI is still your best friend, to assess the health of every bit of the project...

I would expect every piece of rubber on it needs to be replaced.

An engine OH is highly probable.

Tank sealant has been done by Alex, study his pictures.

The cost of keeping a plane includes monthly rent.

protecting your investment requires insurance.

Keep both eyes open.  It will take a ton of t-shirt sales to cover some of these costs.

Proceed with extreme caution...

Even with a free plane, the other 50 amu can be a challenge to come by.

Best regards,

-a-

[M20FanJesse]

The mechanic would let me keep it on his ramp mostly rent free for sure, and he would also help me with the maintenance. Now he is a busy guy so I don't expect him to help me with everything, but knowing several mechanically inclined friends and A&Ps would occasionally help me out, and I'd love to get my hands dirty. mechanics costs should be relatively low.

That being said yeah a new engine is likely a necessity, and that would for sure be my biggest cost. But doable especially with the value it would add to the plane overall in the end. I would get a PPI done, absolutely. Thank you guys for all your tips already, wow! 

Its hard not to get too excited and jump into something, so, you are right, I will be taking extreme caution. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by M20FanJesse

[MB65E]

Depending on how much time is on the engine, you could open it up, do some AD and SB research, repace items as needed, and put it back together for something reasonable. If it holds fuel and doesn't leak, no need to redo the tanks. 

My concern would be rodents and corrosion. There was some corrosion on the wing tip fairing it looked like. Pull the interior and check the steel before making another offer. 

-Matt

[Raptor05121]

Jesse, I'll dive into my experience to let you determine what would be best:

I found my current plane sitting in a hangar only an hour's drive away from me. Owner lost his medical but had still been flying it around the patch. It was out of annual by 2 years. The engine is at TBO, tanks were leaking. I bought it for $16k, and about 12 months later (that's not a typo), I finally flew it for the first time. My first annual was $11,000 and some change. I'm $26k into it and it's got a timed out engine and crap panel, but still is a hoot to fly. I've been lucky with the Lycoming's having the cam up top, mine hasn't been showing any signs of wear. Oil filters have been spotless.

With that said, you have highlighted the BIG possibilities. The engine can be considered a run-out. You can do what my friend Cody did and buy an engine off Barnstormers and swap it. You might be able to find a mid-time IO-360 for anywhere between $10k-20k and do a swap, instantly raises the value. The tanks, that's another big part. If you do bladders, it's a buy once, cry once deal. Half of the price of my 11k annual was labor in stripping and resealing the tanks alone, so I spent 5k on those alone.

I will say, when I saw the first picture, I was like "oh wow cool" and when I scrolled down and saw how bright she shone, my heart skipped a beat. That is ONE SEXY 201! Right now inside me is screaming "get it! get it! get it!" BUT you also want to make sure you are ready for this leap. Airplanes, especially at our age (I bought mine at 24, I'm 26 now) is A MASSIVE FINANCIAL BURDEN. I'm spending close to 90% of my disposable income alone to be able to say I own a plane. My girlfriend wants to go house shopping, but we can't because of the airplane. My truck is 20 years old and I would like something newer and more economical, but I can't because of the airplane. There are times that I have been depressed due to financial strain and my short and long term goals with owning versus not owning it.

If I had to do it all over again, honestly, hand on heart, I would go back in time to tell my past self to walk away. I'm not sure how your income situation is, but my plane is literally eating me out of house and home. I want to finish my IFR and commercial tickets and I'll eventually sell it, at a massive loss. And this is with a carburated, Johnson-bar C model. With the J, you've got the angle valve cylinders which are almost twice the price of their parallel valve brethren, you've got fuel servos, electric gear, etc.

You ask how much we think its worth and how much you would need? Well as above, someone said 50k for a runout and 100k for a perfect J model. But, that is a 1981 model and it was last flown in 89? Its a time capsule. I can't imagine it having much time, and being hangared is a good sign. I haven no idea what it would be worth but I would easily say you need $20,000 to get it back in proper shape, and thats assuming the engine does not need a swap.

But please keep in mind this is just my take! This is just something I wish I would have known when I saw my plane, because I fell in love. (A couple of the MS'ers on here also persuaded me not to undertake this project). It's not a smart move to fall in love with your first. and that plane deserves a home and if you have the financial backing and an A&P who is willing to help, it CAN be done.




It just takes a lot of money

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, M20FanJesse said:

The mechanic would let me keep it on his ramp mostly rent free for sure, and he would also help me with the maintenance. Now he is a busy guy so I don't expect him to help me with everything, but knowing several mechanically inclined friends and A&Ps would occasionally help me out, and I'd love to get my hands dirty. mechanics costs should be relatively low.

That being said yeah a new engine is likely a necessity, and that would for sure be my biggest cost. But doable especially with the value it would add to the plane overall in the end. I would get a PPI done, absolutely. Thank you guys for all your tips already, wow! 

Its hard not to get too excited and jump into something, so, you are right, I will be taking extreme caution. 

Since it is a project of sorts, don't kill it by keeping in on a ramp for "free". It wont be free. Please put it in a hangar where you can do the work on it, keep tools, beer etc. Sunny CA kills planes just like Sunny Fl. kills planes outside on the ramp. You saw how nice it cleaned up with a bath, don't expect that with a plane that has been sitting outside for a year.

[Yetti]

Not necessiarly needs tanks resealed if they are not leaking now.  Fill it up and let it sit.    Assume about $10K to get it back in the air.   Having your A&P show you stuff is priceless.   Check for corrosion FIRSt  using M20 Docs Checklist

[XXX]

Jesse, What a cool find! This experience alone is a once in a lifetime event. I was involved at a young age with a barn find, a 1967 big block Corvette convertible. A mentor of mine bought it and got it running and I was a part of that, I still cherish the memory of riding down the road listening to the side pipe exhaust and all the heads turining to look at this time capsule. As cool as it was to be a part of it, I didn't have the means or know how to bring that car to completion.

Airplane ownership can be very costly. More so than classic cars or even houses. It can also be very rewarding, If my 24 year old son wanted to buy this Mooney, I would discourage him from doing so. Having owned a couple of planes, I know the hidden costs that abound.  What I would do however is encourage him to buy a home, fix it up and rent it out. Use the cash flow from the rental, even if it is just a couple of hundred dollars a month, toward the airplane dream. Let someone else pay for your airplane and pay off your house. You are young, build your empire and then buy the airplane that you want. In the end it will be a much more satisfying experience. 

Thanks for sharing this experience. I look forward to finding out what becomes of this beauty. 

Best, 

Steve

[Jallen0]

Everyone has some great points about the possible hazards, pitfalls, and financial ruin you have ahead of you if you buy this plane. On the other side you also have a unique journey you can embark on that will stay with you for the rest of your life. There is plenty of downside...but there is also a great upside. This is not a plane that has to be up in the air next week...you can take a year or two (or longer!) working through the process and still come out ahead when it comes time to sell it.

Lots of great factual reasons to walk away from this plane. To me the entire story is before the wash and after the wash. I am sure you felt fantastic when you saw those two pictures. Imagine when you are down the road a bit and you are flying that plane. As they say it's not always the destination but the journey that makes the trip worthwhile.

[rpcc]

Look at your W2 and Bank statement.  Take 20k each year out of your W2 for expenses, and 80k out of your Bank statement(for the purchase and make ready cap ex) - are you good - can you eat, entertain that yet to find beautiful girlfriend who will soon want a house and kids that need to eat and go to college.  Don't forget Jimmy, your friend who has a great idea and wants a friend to partner with him in business - just needs 200k - can you still do that.  Dude, there's lots of life in front of you.  Plan well.  Rent now, build for the future.  Buy the plane when you have the important things in life secured.

Or - just say screw it and buy the thing remembering that the above yet to happen things will be affected.  

[Drumstick]

 

If the keys are missing - what about the logbooks? 

Think long and hard about aircraft ownership unless you have disposable income and lots of it.  So calculate your expected costs and then double them! 

Define your mission and requirements.  If you are sinking money into a non-flying plane then you are spending money and not  actually doing any flying - meanwhile spending money to insure it and just do preventative maintenance - not restorative work!  Once it starts flying - the money to restore will decrease as its more fun to fly than work on a plane! 

Second thought - you will have a major financial liability on your hands.  A non flying plane is very very very hard to sell unless its dirt cheap.  My bank won't even consider a loan unless the aircraft passes a PPI and has a current annual and registered.  Finding a lender may be hard so you might have to buy this airplane with cash.  You will also need CASH to pay the taxes on the purchase...that is unavoidable and you can't finance that part like you can on a car.  Expect a 20% down payment plus an additional 7-10% for taxes.  Include 1-2K for PPI.  Additionally 3-5K minimum just to address all the rubber items on the aircraft that will have dry rotted and need replaced.  All this and you may get to first flight - IF the motor checks out.  I would not expect to fly it more than 100 hrs after that before it starts making metal.

Bottom line - an aircraft is a luxury item.  I waited 23 years and even though I can "afford" a Bravo or 252 - I settled with an M20C because it fit my financial risk tolerance. 

I don't know your financial situation but unless you have fully funded plan in place to retire at 55-60 - I would skip buying at this time.  There will be other Mooneys to be had.  I'll admit that I'm being the negative nancy...but I've been in the business of trying to keep young people from making stupid mistakes for a long time...

Edited July 26, 2017 by Drumstick

[TCC]

Wow. What a story.

[M20FanJesse]

Wow, Raptor, your advice really hits close to home! Thank you that was a very insightful read. I will be messaging you!

As far as keeping it on the ramp, you're right, I am worried about the sun, and that is something to consider. However all maintenance would be done inside the hangar. Its a big hangar, the one in the background of the picture. And luckily my girlfriend is an aeronautical engineer and is more into airplanes than I am so I dont need to worry there haha! 

 

I want to say I understand the costs of airplane ownership, but obviously I can't fully yet. Even getting this flying, I want to say I understand there will be thousands in hidden maintenance problems along the way. But its hard to see how I couldn't easily sell it for what I purchase it for. My plan would be to buy it, sit on it for a year or longer and judge at that point if I can afford to get it flying. To me that SEEMS low risk. But I do understand things dont always go to plan. PPI is a must. I'm not dead set on buying this plane. I'd be fine walking away. 

Thanks everyone for your advice. I value each of your comments!

 

edit* Drumstick,I do have the cash to pay for the plane and taxes. But you are totally right, an airplane is a luxury item, and its not one I'm entirely sure I could swing. Im pretty sure the log books are accounted for, but this is still all just now developing, so would have to report back later. Thank you for comment, and you're not being a Negative nancy! haha

Edited July 26, 2017 by M20FanJesse

[INA201]

If the plane were free it will cost a lot of money to restore, maintain, insure, and fly.  Run the numbers! Write the numbers down and look at them. Most folks here and on this current thread will be able to help you make a decision.   It looks like a potentially good opportunity especially if you like working on it and or the numbers work for you.  If the numbers don't add up you could always create an LLC, bring in some partners etc. etc. When there is a will there is a way. This passion exceeds the finances of many a pilot. Good luck! A lot of fun!

[M20FanJesse]

3 minutes ago, INA201 said:

This passion exceeds the finances of many a pilot.

Thats what I'm worried about! haha

[PMcClure]

Lots of good advice here. I have always believed that money will come available for a good project. Can you find a partner who can back you while you do the hard work? Or maybe the family could partner with you to get it airworthy again. Your mechanic? Then sell it together or get a loan for yourself. Get creative and find a way to make it happen. 

 

[jrwilson]

Do it!  Take a chance, you only live once!   Your avatar picture says, "Model:  M20J (One day)"  Make that a reality now!   Then again, it's not my money    I bought a Cessna 140 at 25 years old, and like Raptor mentioned, it took up WAY TOO MUCH of my disposable income and the wife complained...But over time, the relative costs decreased as my income increased, even with upgrading to a M20C, and the wife complained much less.  Owning an aircraft has been an incredible experience, even if at times it was financially burdensome.

[tigers2007]

Open up this cost comparison spreadsheet and crunch the numbers; reference the "tabs" at the bottom of the spreadsheet. It might be very shocking to see the real-world numbers. I make just above the six-figure mark, have no kids, and I can barely afford my M20D. My geographic cost of living is low and my hangar rental is next-to-nothing (very opposite of California...). Keep in mind that it is my goal to retire at 50 with zero debt but with many toys...

I still think you should pick this up, if it passes a pre-buy, and flip it. Buy a C model and benefit from the cheaper costs and one day buy this 201 back after you start raking in the huge California salary. Or step 2, leave California and move to Texas.

alan_hoffler_cost_comparison.xls