Bravo Ownership Questions

[jetdriven]

A lot of that can be alleviated by using the proper foam in the seats. Confor and DAX both have great selections and if you get the layers of density is just right it will greatly alleviate your back issues

[Herlihy Brother]

Thanks JD I will look into that!  I have another 4k mile trip (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=smx-gle-fsd-pdx-smx)  coming up and it would be great to have a little comfort and send that energy somewhere else.  Of course, changing foam reminds me of clearance issues and the ceiling banging our heads take in turbulence.  The violent (Arizona & New Mexico summers, convective west coast winters) constant up and down has really worked the cervical vertebrae over the years.

[KSMooniac]

Definitely sounds like you need a seat upgrade! If you don't want to do the covers, re-foaming with modern stuff is a great option. I have a set of salvage seats I plan to modernize one of these days, to include multi-density foams, sculpted to provide great support everywhere (like a modern sport sedan seat) to maximize comfort. You don't necessarily need more thickness of foam, either. Putting a thin layer of the dense stuff at the bottom is all you need, then some medium and perhaps a thin layer of light on top.

 

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[FoxMike]

I had problems with the foam in my TLS (too soft).  I bought some memory foam and had it installed.  It was not cheap to install but a 1000 mile day is far more comfortable.  If you do this be sure and get burn certificates.

[jetdriven]

I bought 3 sheets of Skandia DAX foam (firm, med, soft) it was 220$. And came with burn certification. (Not required for pt91 ops, but this is corporate jet stuff)

1" of each,put the seat bottom cover back on. Cut with a electric carving knife, glue with foam spray glue. 

[M016576]

On 7/25/2017 at 2:59 PM, donkaye said:

Form me:

Hangar:  6,600

Insurance:  2,600

Taxes: 1,500

Annual: 6,000 average

Fuel at 120 hours/year and 4.50/gallon and 18 gal/hr: 9,720

Oil Changes: 5 at 200: 1,000

That's 26,820.  Then add 10,000 for unexpected maintenance expenses: $36,820.  This is realistic including the 10K miscellaneous. Miscellaneous might include Batteries at 500 a pop, spark plugs, exhaust maintenance, turbo and waste gate overhaul, possibly some cylinder work as time goes on, O2 cylinder checks, prop o ring overhaul, reserve for engine overhaul (expect at least 70,000 for that) and on and on.

That hangar cost down there in the Bay Area is expensive!

your insurance rate is more expensive ( double) than I'd expect, too.  Is that due to your instruction in the airplane?  

the rest is a brutally honest assessment of airplane ownership: don't expect much different from this.  I also LOVE that 10% rule you describe- very smart.

[kortopates]

26 minutes ago, M016576 said:

your insurance rate is more expensive ( double) than I'd expect, too.  Is that due to your instruction in the airplane?  

I don't think there is one independent Mooney CFI that can afford to to insure their personal airplane for instruction. Its gets outrageous and there is no way we could we even break even.  The only way would be just like any club aircraft - leased back to club and flown by lots of other pilots. No thanks.

Also, Don's not based at what most would refer to as the bay area, although I don't know that its any more expensive there either, but I pay the same in San Diego - its expensive almost everywhere in CA that is not rural due to simple supply vs demand. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by kortopates

[jetdriven]

Our hanger here in Houston is 5500$ a year. 

[KSMooniac]

$3180/yr in Wichita for a big private t-hangar with bifold door, in town.

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[M016576]

52 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I don't think there is one independent Mooney CFI that can afford to to insure their personal airplane for instruction. Its gets outrageous and there is no way we could we even break even.  The only way would be just like any club aircraft - leased back to club and flown by lots of other pilots. No thanks.

Also, Don's not based at what most would refer to as the bay area, although I don't know that its any more expensive there either, but I pay the same in San Diego - its expensive almost everywhere in CA that is not rural due to simple supply vs demand. 

I'm living in the sticks in Oregon... anything within 200NM of the bay is the Bay Area to me!!!

makes sense- lots of people, little hangar space.  I pay 175 a month.... so 2100 a year.  But then again, I'm in the sticks!

[donkaye]

On 8/27/2017 at 7:18 PM, M016576 said:

That hangar cost down there in the Bay Area is expensive!

your insurance rate is more expensive ( double) than I'd expect, too.  Is that due to your instruction in the airplane?  

the rest is a brutally honest assessment of airplane ownership: don't expect much different from this.  I also LOVE that 10% rule you describe- very smart.

I wouldn't even begin to consider teaching in MY airplane.  A student flying my airplane---NEVER!!!

[M016576]

14 hours ago, donkaye said:

I wouldn't even begin to consider teaching in MY airplane.  A student flying my airplane---NEVER!!!

We're all students when it comes to flying, even the most seasoned instructor pilots.  But I get your drift- I wouldn't let my students fly my mooney either- or anyone else, for that matter: its mine!  

It was just a question as I noticed your rate appears to be higher than I'd expect for a Bravo: I paid $1200 last year on a 150,000 1M/1M smooth, so I assumed it wouldn't be but a couple hundred more for a 200K hull.  I guess your hull is insured for quite a bit more than I'd expect- you do have a nice Avionics setup in there- so that would make sense, too.

Edited August 29, 2017 by M016576

[Bravoman]

15 hours ago, M016576 said:

We're all students when it comes to flying, even the most seasoned instructor pilots.  But I get your drift- I wouldn't let my students fly my mooney either- or anyone else, for that matter: its mine!  

It was just a question as I noticed your rate appears to be higher than I'd expect for a Bravo: I paid $1200 last year on a 150,000 1M/1M smooth, so I assumed it wouldn't be but a couple hundred more for a 200K hull.  I guess your hull is insured for quite a bit more than I'd expect- you do have a nice Avionics setup in there- so that would make sense, too.

 If you don't mind me asking, who is your insurance broker? 

Thanks, Frank

[M016576]

6 hours ago, Bravoman said:

 If you don't mind me asking, who is your insurance broker? 

Thanks, Frank

Falcon+USAA (there's another thread about whether or not the USAA piece matters)- Old Republic is the underwriter

I should probably mention that I have several thousand turbine retract hours, ATP, CFII...which I'm sure helps lower the premium a little.  I only have 800 or so mooney hours though, and while I've been instructing in the military for many years, I have very few civilian instructor hours.

 I found that Falcon was able to offer me rates that were 200-300 less than what AOPA had quoted me- I switched in 2011 and haven't explored other companies since.

Edited August 30, 2017 by M016576

[Bravoman]

5 hours ago, M016576 said:

Falcon+USAA (there's another thread about whether or not the USAA piece matters)- Old Republic is the underwriter

I should probably mention that I have several thousand turbine retract hours, ATP, CFII...which I'm sure helps lower the premium a little.  I only have 800 or so mooney hours though, and while I've been instructing in the military for many years, I have very few civilian instructor hours.

 I found that Falcon was able to offer me rates that were 200-300 less than what AOPA had quoted me- I switched in 2011 and haven't explored other companies since.

I'm a USAA member as well so I'll check that out with Falcon at renewal time. I inquired with  USAA several years ago, probably in 09 or so,  and they weren't doing anything with aviation  at that time.  I love USAA but in my experience they do not always have the best premium rates, especially when it comes to homeowners coverage. Can't  beat their customer service and claims handling though.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Bravoman

[M016576]

13 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I'm a USAA member as well so I'll check that out with Falcon at renewal time. I inquired with  USAA several years ago, probably in 09 or so,  and they weren't doing anything with aviation  at that time.  I love USAA but in my experience they do not always have the best premium rates, especially when it comes to homeowners coverage. Can't  beat their customer service and claims handling though.

I think, and I can't be 100% certain, but I mentioned that I was a Usaa member to Falcon, and gave them my Usaa number, and when I signed the binder, the aviation insurance showed up in my USAA account.  Falcon is the company that contacts me every year at renewal time, though: I haven't had any Usaa contact regarding the aviation policy: it just shows in my accounts, that's all.  Whether there's a discount or not related to that, I don't know.

[carusoam]

+1 USAA 

+1 Falcon

+1 Brenda (Still there?)

Going on 17 years... covering the plane, 30 years w/ USAA covering everything else...

The USAA website lists all the policies my family has including falcon and old republic...

One stop shopping, and communication after any issues... (kinda modern)

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[gsengle]

FWIW my all in expenses running an Ovation about 100 hours a year is maybe 20amu/year, excluding upgrades... seems to fall in between.


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[M016576]

2 minutes ago, gsengle said:

FWIW my all in expenses running an Ovation about 100 hours a year is maybe 20amu/year, excluding upgrades... seems to fall in between.


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Have we done a thread like this before, where we all posted operating costs for type of aircraft and part of the country?  If not, maybe it would be worth doing- could help prospective buyers see what the "real world" costs could be/are. 

Edit: of course, we'd all have to be honest

Edited August 31, 2017 by M016576

[Bravoman]

14 minutes ago, M016576 said:

I think, and I can't be 100% certain, but I mentioned that I was a Usaa member to Falcon, and gave them my Usaa number, and when I signed the binder, the aviation insurance showed up in my USAA account.  Falcon is the company that contacts me every year at renewal time, though: I haven't had any Usaa contact regarding the aviation policy: it just shows in my accounts, that's all.  Whether there's a discount or not related to that, I don't know.

Thanks this is great to know.

[carusoam]

Reminder: Look for the MAPA discount and other additional training things like the IR, when talking to Falcon...

Thinking out loud...

-a-

[FoxMike]

USAA many years ago brokered aircraft insurance.  They decided that their aviation book was too small to justify having a specialized staff.  They worked out a sub agency agreement with Falcon.  I pay my premium through USAA and they get a part of the commission Falcon makes on the brokerage.  

[Bravoman]

On 8/31/2017 at 4:04 PM, FoxMike said:

USAA many years ago brokered aircraft insurance.  They decided that their aviation book was too small to justify having a specialized staff.  They worked out a sub agency agreement with Falcon.  I pay my premium through USAA and they get a part of the commission Falcon makes on the brokerage.  

I wonder if since USAA is involved, the underlying coverage issued through Falcon can attach to my USAA umbrella? I will definitely check that out as well. That  would be a  huge benefit of the arrangement.  If that were the case, it would really constitute a big savings since the umbrella is very inexpensive from a premium standpoint as compared to each million in  coverage you add to the liability coverage on an aviation policy.

[Steve Dawson]

You never mentioned what your mission is. If a lot of your hours will be flying for breakfast or hamburger runs the J would probably be the best If you have to get somewhere for a meeting or back home were weather or terrain is a factor and there's only a few hamburger runs the M might work. The other consideration would be cargo area and useful load. On my J I can put in two full sized suitcases and a golf bag but it's packed. I haven't any experience with the Bravo but they have more room and a little more useful load.