Cooperd0g Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 I am starting to gather information and advice about buying my first plane. I am looking at M20 E and F primarily, but will probably consider a C as well. I have read a ton here and on other sites, but I'm still learning Something I am noticing about many planes for sale is that they either have low hours since last overhaul, but haven't been flown at all in recent years or they have 1500-1600 since last overhaul and get flown regularly. I think I would rather avoid a plane that has been sitting for fear of it needing work sooner despite the low hours. For the ones with higher time engines and recent use, how likely are they to make it past TBO? I know with a good digital engine analyzer you can keep a good eye on things to catch issues before they cause real harm. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 1) Most Mooneys are capable of going past TBO... depending on how well they have been run and or maintained... 2) Most Turbo Mooneys have the option of OHing cylinders on the halfway point to TBO. Owner/Pilot decides go fast at all cost vs cruise slower for better economics... 3) linear math can be used from 0-2k hrs for most engines. A few engines offer less hours to TBO and some offer more. Some engines are 20amu others are 40amu... R&R can be a few AMU more... 4) it is hard to use an engine often enough to benefit from extended TBO offers... 5) For Best engine longevity, run it an hour each day.... every day... great if you are commuting with it... 6) A half-used engine is economically helpful. One at the end of its life is not economically helpful for a first time owner... 7) a completely run-out engine is a dream for the guy who knows how to install the engine of his choice... 8) a plane with no time on it can be a box of surprises. 9) for an ordinary first time plane owner, get something in the middle with a long time before any maintenance is coming due... 10) avoid anything that hasn't been flown in a year... unless you like additional challenges. 11) engines and machines have a tendency to wear at one rate and rust at another... PP ideas only... this is an overly simplified list of things that may possibly answer your question.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 I appreciate the thoughts. By the way, what does AMU mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Av monetary unit... Keeps you VP of finances at bay... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 10 minutes ago, Cooperd0g said: I appreciate the thoughts. By the way, what does AMU mean? An Aviation Monetary Unit is $10^3. R&R for an engine is Remove and Reinstall; it is completely different for pilots . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Check out Mike Busch's webinars at EAA.org. His argument is that a high-time engine has fully depreciated in value, but may run longer. A low-time engine has not depreciated but can pose problems from lack of activity. He suggests getting a near-TBO engine--the engine will not lose any more value and may run much longer. Even if it dies, the money to overhaul it would have been money you would have to have spent for a low-time engine anyway. Of course, I went out and did the exact opposite and got a factory overhauled engine that sat around a few years turned out ok so far, though 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Great explanation, Jay! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: Check out Mike Busch's webinars at EAA.org. His argument is that a high-time engine has fully depreciated in value, but may run longer. A low-time engine has not depreciated but can pose problems from lack of activity. He suggests getting a near-TBO engine--the engine will not lose any more value and may run much longer. Even if it dies, the money to overhaul it would have been money you would have to have spent for a low-time engine anyway. Of course, I went out and did the exact opposite and got a factory overhauled engine that sat around a few years turned out ok so far, though The only problem with this is then you need a significant chunk of money laying around just in case ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, Cooperd0g said: The only problem with this is then you need a significant chunk of money laying around just in case ... You always need a chunk of money laying around just in case. You pay your money, you take your chances... and cross your fingers you don't have to tap into that chunk of change. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 There is always going to be What ifs when owning a machine. It is constant, never ending and can keep some people not enjoying life... If rust and wear cause you pain, how do you feel about acts of god and other errant people? My first year, I had laid out what kind of financial hits I could take. The worst ones would cause the sale of what was left of the plane... Around here, we have seen stuck valves, broken piston parts, corrosion and silent engines...The FAA can also deal a wild card... something called an AD. These essentially are Real worst case kind of scenarios... Most people don't experience these issues... I drew the stuck valve card in my first year. A 1 AMU fix, and I was good to go for the next decade. Another person around here left their Mooney in a tree after a similar stuck valve... I bought a C that was left outdoors and went flight free for a couple of years... not the wisest way to buy a plane... A decade later I bought a much nicer plane...knowingly. Become familiar with the PPI. Who What where and all that... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 The only problem with this is then you need a significant chunk of money laying around just in case ... You need that significant chunk of money laying around regardless unless you are buying a new plane with a warranty. The risk exposure is real and one is better off renting till they are prepared or could handle an unexpected engine overhaul anytime. Read around here and you'll see the engine is not the biggest risk either. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 There are ways to mitigate the risks of engine misbehavior... Reading... Mike Bucsh is a well respected resource. MS covers every aspect, in less formal formats... Tools... engine monitors are pretty common tools. portable tools. Thermometers, tachs, voltmeters... iPhones... The willingness to use them. Questions... Don't be afraid to ask strike up a conversation gain some knowledge. Services... oil analysis maintnenace programs https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvyaviation-home/savvy-services/savvymx/. when you need assistance reading the engine monitor graphs. MS is full of helpful people... First time owner's like you pro pilots that really know FAA systems and know deep detail on all other aspects of plane ownership. Shop owners and mechanics that really know maintenance and aren't afraid to type. engineers and mechanics that can write STCs. a couple of people in their 20s, a few in their 30s, plenty in their 40... We have at least one pro finance guy. Some answers you may not really want to know the answer to.... There probably hasn't been a better time to own a plane in the past decade or two... costs are down, interest rates are as low as it gets, fuel price has been livable. The government has been handing out cash for ADSB installs.... unemployment is at a decade low. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpcc Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 There is much written about airframe corrosion as well on this site. I'd consider that a research item when looking at a an aircraft build in the Kennedy/Johnson era. One frequent poster here found it under tank sealant on his wing spar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 Yes, I found the thread on the PPI checklist. I also plan on getting it done at a Mooney Service Center with plans to turn the pre-buy into an annual per other recommends I have found on this site. I have a spreadsheet to keep track of info on each plane I am looking at to determine if I will contact them or not. Then after more info I will decide if I am going to pursue or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 19 minutes ago, Cooperd0g said: Yes, I found the thread on the PPI checklist. I also plan on getting it done at a Mooney Service Center with plans to turn the pre-buy into an annual per other recommends I have found on this site. I have a spreadsheet to keep track of info on each plane I am looking at to determine if I will contact them or not. Then after more info I will decide if I am going to pursue or not. It sounds like you've got it well in hand. For me the sweet spot is a regularly run engine between 500 and 1000 hours. But they can be rare. So one other piece of advice that hasn't been mentioned... get your finances together so you have cash for a deposit at the ready. When the right plane comes along, that matches your requirements and is a good deal based on your spreadsheet and research, it's good to be able to lock it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 One good way to mitigate the multi AMU surprises is to treat your plane, financially, the same way you would a rental. That is, set aside in an account/fund/sock drawer a certain amount of money for every hour you fly the plane. This is in addition to the oil, hangar, fuel, etc. operating expenses you have. If you want to get fancy, you can break the reserve into avionics, engine, interior, and any other item you might want to maintain in the future with a large $$$ attached to it. If you are fortunate enough to fund a $30,000 plus engine o/h from current income, all of this is moot, but many of us like to have that reserve (slush?) fund to take care of surprises or unplanned opportunities to upgrade something. The amount of monthly donations to your reserve will vary with the proximity of needing major work on the plane. An engine with 1800 hours might need a healthy reserve while one like Paul mentions above with less than 1000 might necessitate less. And if you come to the question of "Why am I setting aside this money if it is the same as I would spend to rent?" then you might question why you want to purchase. I doubt many on here would pontificate about how much money they saved by buying over renting. But having my own plane, flying it where I want, when I want, and how I want answers the question for me. You should have your own answers, and if you are to the point of looking for a Mooney, you likely do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BradB Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 12 hours ago, Cooperd0g said: I appreciate the thoughts. By the way, what does AMU mean? You will find out very soon. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 2 hours ago, BradB said: You will find out very soon. They are what you hide from your spouse to give to the hole in the ground that lives in the hangar with your plane. ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 4 hours ago, Cooperd0g said: Yes, I found the thread on the PPI checklist. I also plan on getting it done at a Mooney Service Center with plans to turn the pre-buy into an annual per other recommends I have found on this site. I have a spreadsheet to keep track of info on each plane I am looking at to determine if I will contact them or not. Then after more info I will decide if I am going to pursue or not. Hi Keith, First and foremost find a good solid airframe, corrosion free. You can get a good idea of this with a cursory inspection of the wheel wells, spar etc when you find one you would like to visit for consideration. Prebuy the owner as much as the plane, get his attitude on maintenance, care, and flying style. Does he drive around in a beater, looking for the gas station that is .03/gal cheaper than the rest, etc.. Then if happy and if on the same page financially, schedule a prebuy with one of the top shops like Maxwell, Oasis, AGL, Daytona etc. Good luck, you have picked the only plane that can keep that f16 grin on your face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted July 24, 2017 Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 In a perfect world, I'd take a 300+ low hour, recent overhaul. Far enough into it to rule out some premature failures. Given your choices of a low hour hangar queen or a higher hour engine that's flown regularly, I'd take the latter. Mike's advice above is golden. Engine and corrosion issues are two of the bigger maintenance costs to avoid if possible. Leaking fuel tanks probably rounds out the top three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooperd0g Posted July 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2017 3 hours ago, rbridges said: In a perfect world, I'd take a 300+ low hour, recent overhaul. Far enough into it to rule out some premature failures. Given your choices of a low hour hangar queen or a higher hour engine that's flown regularly, I'd take the latter. Mike's advice above is golden. Engine and corrosion issues are two of the bigger maintenance costs to avoid if possible. Leaking fuel tanks probably rounds out the top three. Luckily I'm in no rush so I will take my time looking for the right plane. I would rather wait for the right one then make a rash decision. Of course @jetpilot12 M20C is calling to me ... It has pretty much everything I want. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 It is a real crap-shoot regarding engines. In my opinion, before buying a plane a person should be able to afford to replace the engine (or something else expensive) at any time. That doesn't mean the money needs to be sitting in a bank account, but be able to get it and not lose sleep over it. This could happen at 300 SMOH or 2300 SMOH. Another point, no matter what the seller says, you don't know how the engine has been operated over it's life. They could cruise at 85% power and 400 degrees CHT and you would never know. One thing you can do, review the engine monitor data. I think that would tell a lot. At least you could find out how the most recent flights were operated. I never hear about buyers doing that. Larry 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 57 minutes ago, larryb said: It is a real crap-shoot regarding engines. In my opinion, before buying a plane a person should be able to afford to replace the engine (or something else expensive) at any time. That doesn't mean the money needs to be sitting in a bank account, but be able to get it and not lose sleep over it. This could happen at 300 SMOH or 2300 SMOH. Another point, no matter what the seller says, you don't know how the engine has been operated over it's life. They could cruise at 85% power and 400 degrees CHT and you would never know. One thing you can do, review the engine monitor data. I think that would tell a lot. At least you could find out how the most recent flights were operated. I never hear about buyers doing that. Larry Great idea! So I've seen two schools of thought advocated- buy a low time engine, or buy a high time engine and redo the engine. VREF likes to straight line the engine value, but in reality the first 200+ hrs are free (buyers will pay the same as a new engine) and the last 200+ hrs are free (buyers will see the engine as run-out). Plenty of people look and can't get over the risk of owning a plane. It's a real risk and not something I like to think about, but it's real. I wanted a traveling airplane with some speed. Part of the reason I ended up with a J is that the IO360 has a reputation of being a pretty solid engine. The big bore continental engines have a reputation of going through cylinders; I wasn't comfortable with a potential $10K bill to redo the cylinders on the engine. It's always a risk, but the engine / speed combination of the J model made a lot of sense to me. You have to get comfortable with the risk, but I absolutely love owning a plane and will continue as long as I have enough time to fly (either business or pleasure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 On 7/24/2017 at 11:05 AM, Cooperd0g said: I am starting to gather information and advice about buying my first plane. I am looking at M20 E and F primarily, but will probably consider a C as well. I have read a ton here and on other sites, but I'm still learning Something I am noticing about many planes for sale is that they either have low hours since last overhaul, but haven't been flown at all in recent years or they have 1500-1600 since last overhaul and get flown regularly. I think I would rather avoid a plane that has been sitting for fear of it needing work sooner despite the low hours. For the ones with higher time engines and recent use, how likely are they to make it past TBO? I know with a good digital engine analyzer you can keep a good eye on things to catch issues before they cause real harm. Thanks Don't talk yourself into thinking the engine will run past TBO. Assume it will not and price accordingly. High hour airframe with low hour engine that hasn't been flown for years is bad. They will get you to pay for the low hour engine even though it's crusty inside. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 25, 2017 Report Share Posted July 25, 2017 I would and did buy a high time engine, priced it as a runout, less risky. I'm past TBO now but someday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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