Gear up protection

[Cyril Gibb]

There is a plethora of relatively inexpensive radar distance measuring stuff available now that cars have auto sensing and braking.

Wouldn't it be easy to fit a ground proximity warning when the gear was still up at 200 feet or whatever?  I know that the cost would be higher than it should because of certification requirements.

Maybe the govt gods could see the safety advantages to speed certification and reduce costs... And maybe insurance companies could provide an insurance discount for equipped planes?  I'd pay for one if I could recoup the costs over a few years.

[ArtVandelay]

They do have radar altimeters, don't know about adding a switch.

[201er]

Piper arrows already have a pitot switch that automatically extends the gear below a certain speed. 

[peevee]

3 minutes ago, 201er said:

Piper arrows already have a pitot switch that automatically extends the gear below a certain speed. 

some, I don't think all. The later models like late 90's or early 2k's I don't remember having it.

[PMcClure]

13 minutes ago, 201er said:

Piper arrows already have a pitot switch that automatically extends the gear below a certain speed. 

Sounds like a good way to have an unintended stall. 

[kortopates]

34 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

There is a plethora of relatively inexpensive radar distance measuring stuff available now that cars have auto sensing and braking.

Wouldn't it be easy to fit a ground proximity warning when the gear was still up at 200 feet or whatever?  I know that the cost would be higher than it should because of certification requirements.

Maybe the govt gods could see the safety advantages to speed certification and reduce costs... And maybe insurance companies could provide an insurance discount for equipped planes?  I'd pay for one if I could recoup the costs over a few years.

There are a plethora of approved gear safety devices available now for our aircraft. I had one installed eons ago and like this one http://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp This one gives warnings through the audio panel in English based and is tied into the pitot-static system to alert based on speed which is more than adequate. There are radar altimeter based devices too but I don't recall offhand and their other more affordable options out there too.

 

  

27 minutes ago, 201er said:

Piper arrows already have a pitot switch that automatically extends the gear below a certain speed. 

 

13 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

Sounds like a good way to have an unintended stall. 

Exactly, as I recall the Piper "automatic gear" had a AD's against it to remove it after the system killed a number of people because pilots weren't adequately trained in their use. There must of been some option in the AD to keep it, perhaps with the following mod. The ones I flew had a floor switch to deactivate the system when you were flying very slowly, e.g., departing a high density altitude airport and initially climbing out at Vx for terrain. I just don't know if that was a mod required by the AD or if it was always there. But that was exactly how many folks died because either they either didn't know to use the deactivation mode or they didn't have it. But even with the system its killed a number of people departing trying to clear terrain in a maximum performance takeoff/climb and the gear drops down suddenly when they got slow such as a bump of air. You can readily see the consequences of that when the plane's ceiling with the gear down was only ~7700' as I recall; although I haven't been one in years but I had to use the deactivation switch many times when I did. The Arrow is dog at altitude. 

Just yet another example of how important pilots need to know their airplane systems to keep them out of trouble when the unexpected happens.

[peevee]

a lot of GPS systems have a 500 foot warning. It would be nice to add check gear in there too, though people might ignore that also. You would think that it would be very easy to feed in a gear down lead to the GPS and if the signal isn't there at 500 feet it alerts you to put the gear out.

[201er]

12 minutes ago, kortopates said:

But even with the system its killed a number of people departing trying to clear terrain in a maximum performance takeoff/climb and the gear drops down suddenly when they got slow such as a bump of air.

Not like post 77Js don't have potentially the same flaw and the requirement to hit an override at the critical moment.... 

[gsengle]

Piper arrows already have a pitot switch that automatically extends the gear below a certain speed. 

Which have almost universally been disabled because of unintended consequences getting pilots in trouble, things like if I recall, gear dropping unexpectedly during go arounds etc


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[gsengle]

Most airplanes have warning alarms that are triggered off of combinations of flap positions and power. Low power and flaps down with gear up is assumed to be trouble...


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[peevee]

8 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Most airplanes have warning alarms that are triggered off of combinations of flap positions and power. Low power and flaps down with gear up is assumed to be trouble...


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also the fact that I can't get to flap speed with the bottom spoilers stowed

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said:

There is a plethora of relatively inexpensive radar distance measuring stuff available now that cars have auto sensing and braking.

Wouldn't it be easy to fit a ground proximity warning when the gear was still up at 200 feet or whatever?  I know that the cost would be higher than it should because of certification requirements.

Maybe the govt gods could see the safety advantages to speed certification and reduce costs... And maybe insurance companies could provide an insurance discount for equipped planes?  I'd pay for one if I could recoup the costs over a few years.

Nothing can be fool proof.  The fool will always win if the fool is not paying attention.  I work hard to try and not be the fool and allow myself to gear up.  I know this is not perfect but maybe it helps.

There are already two kind of very good devices you can get that partly answer your idea.

The P2audio system is something I had installed.  It yells at you in english "check gear check gear" if you get slow and your gear is stowed.

I have my portable gps wired to the audio so I get an audio warning "500" (ft), again in english.

The idea is that english warnings are more likely to catch your attention than bells and whistles.  But over time, if you re not vigilant, you can accidentally learn to not notice the usual sounds, even even if they are in english.  So this is not foolproof but it may help.  It is hard not to notice my airplane telling me in a frantic voice (bitchin betty they call it) "Check gear!  Check gear!".  And you get a soothing voice that says "gear down" if the gear is in place.

[peevee]

one of my favorite videos of how it can happen.

you can hear it chiming the whole way (or it's been added after the fact) and they just keep chit chatting away

 

[aviatoreb]

I hate that video - but it reminds me of an incident locally about 10 years ago - two CFI's flying a light twin (actually one was not just a CFI but a DPE even), did a gear up.  The DPE had about 15,000hrs.  Goes to show that it can happen to anyone if you let it.

Edited July 20, 2017 by aviatoreb

[peevee]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I hate that video - but it reminds me of an incident locally about 10 years ago - two CFI's flying a light twin (actually one was not just a CFI but a DPE even), did a gear up.  The DPE had about 15,000hrs.  Goes to show that it can happen to anyone if you let it.

you'd think the guy filming would notice there's no wheel out when he pans to the side.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, peevee said:

you'd think the guy filming would notice there's no wheel out when he pans to the side.

Yeah - but hey - don't blame the back seat driver for what two pilots in the front seat didn't notice.  I could totally see being in the back seat and just not paying attention to anything other than filming. Back seat guy could have saved the day, but no fault to the back seat driver for not.

[peevee]

3 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - but hey - don't blame the back seat driver for what two pilots in the front seat didn't notice.  I could totally see being in the back seat and just not paying attention to anything other than filming. Back seat guy could have saved the day, but no fault to the back seat driver for not.

the noise it makes. worse than nails on a chalkboard.

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, peevee said:

the noise it makes. worse than nails on a chalkboard.

I'm not sure about that.  Careful - be sure to have on proper hearing protection devices before you click on the following youtube.

 

[Bob_Belville]

I have this.

Aircraft Components Inc PN2037 Gear Alert System iaw STC SA01644AT

http://www.flyingsafer.com/p-n-2037.html

[Cyril Gibb]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have this.

Aircraft Components Inc PN2037 Gear Alert System iaw STC SA01644AT

http://www.flyingsafer.com/p-n-2037.html

That's exactly what I was thinking of.  Did you ask about an insurance discount, or are gear ups lost in the rounding when liability losses are considered?

[kortopates]

That's exactly what I was thinking of.  Did you ask about an insurance discount, or are gear ups lost in the rounding when liability losses are considered?

Forget about the discount. You're buying the added insurance to prevent a gear up and then either find yourself denied by the preferred providers due to the claim and higher rates after one.

Only discounts I know of are for recurrent training.

Are the benefits worth the extra cost?

IMO, Heck yes!

 

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[Danb]

100% Yes Paul

[Rick Junkin]

How about this from ACS?

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/voicegearalert.php?clickkey=32662

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

There are a plethora of approved gear safety devices available now for our aircraft. I had one installed eons ago and like this one http://www.p2inc.com/audioadvisory.asp This one gives warnings through the audio panel in English based and is tied into the pitot-static system to alert based on speed which is more than adequate. There are radar altimeter based devices too but I don't recall offhand and their other more affordable options out there too.

 

  

 

Exactly, as I recall the Piper "automatic gear" had a AD's against it to remove it after the system killed a number of people because pilots weren't adequately trained in their use. There must of been some option in the AD to keep it, perhaps with the following mod. The ones I flew had a floor switch to deactivate the system when you were flying very slowly, e.g., departing a high density altitude airport and initially climbing out at Vx for terrain. I just don't know if that was a mod required by the AD or if it was always there. But that was exactly how many folks died because either they either didn't know to use the deactivation mode or they didn't have it. But even with the system its killed a number of people departing trying to clear terrain in a maximum performance takeoff/climb and the gear drops down suddenly when they got slow such as a bump of air. You can readily see the consequences of that when the plane's ceiling with the gear down was only ~7700' as I recall; although I haven't been one in years but I had to use the deactivation switch many times when I did. The Arrow is dog at altitude. 

Just yet another example of how important pilots need to know their airplane systems to keep them out of trouble when the unexpected happens.

Piper SB 866 called for removal of the back up gear extender system.  SB 866A provides an AMOC to keep it installed and working.

Clarence

[Guest]

Mooney could also bring back the "D" model conversion kit for all models. No more gear ups, period.

Clarence