New drop-in LED bulbs from Whelen

[EricJ]

The stuff that is out there is getting pretty good and prices are coming down.   A buddy put the strobing colored LEDs in his Cherokee.   They're pretty nice!   I think it won't be long until LEDs are inexpensive and ubiquitous.  These:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/el/ledlighting_znavstrobe/navstrobesextant1.php

 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

The stuff that is out there is getting pretty good and prices are coming down.   A buddy put the strobing colored LEDs in his Cherokee.   They're pretty nice!   I think it won't be long until LEDs are inexpensive and ubiquitous.  These:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/el/ledlighting_znavstrobe/navstrobesextant1.php

My understanding is that at night you have to have the red/green solid. Not flashing. Is that correct? 

[EricJ]

Just now, Skates97 said:

My understanding is that at night you have to have the red/green solid. Not flashing. Is that correct? 

Could be, and those do both.   You cycle the switch to cycle between constant and strobing.    Mostly just posted them as an example of the sort of stuff that's out there.   Keeping my fingers crossed that it won't be long until cheap LEDs are the new normal.

[rbridges]

On 9/9/2017 at 0:55 PM, DXB said:

Thanks- Good to know that converting to the conventional Whelen power supply is a pita - I had considered this.   Someone did that for one side on my plane the year before i bought it, and now the vintage '74 Hoskins hardware on the opposite side is dying slowly.  You've finalized my decision go with Whelen 650Es at the tips.   Luckily my  J-bar gear light is just manually dimmed by a mechanical shutter in the housing.  

The prior owner also put enclosed wingtips on my plane, so I need to get my tail light replaced with the Whelen 500 flasher for the 360 degree light coverage  required to remove my old belly light. It's going to be an annoyingly big bill for lighting ($1282 for hardware alone from Spruce), but I will appreciate one less hassle to worry about in the maintenance realm. 

I'm curious if anyone here has  guidance here on appropriate install costs and any install pitfalls with the Whelen LEDs.  I'm guessing it's very simple since everything is self contained in the unit?

I put whelen lights in the wingtips.  Really pretty easy. Removed power supply and spliced wires.  I did not connect the sync wire.  It really doesn't bother me if the lights don't flash exactly the same.  I heard the sync wire can be aggravating b/c you have to thread it through to the other side.

[kortopates]

I am not sure I like the flashing Red port light, it seems it could be easily confused with the red beacon anti-collision light rather than a red nav light. And of course it's not TSO'd. 

[Raptor05121]

Update. I got mine in as well. Further on my thread.

[MB65E]

So Raptor, what is your course of action for approval? I have mine but have not installed them. I talked to a DER and followed the engineering Guide listed in an AC the DERs use. Clearly states that the DER can not issue a 337 for a minor alteration. There is no data that says the lighting change is major alteration. I asked my LA FSDO, he said it may not require a 337 depending on what's a DER says. He  would not give it to me in writing but he said you might call a DER and see what he thinks. VNY Fsdo was by the book and would not allow it. Both declined to put anything on paper!  It's a gray area that even the FSDOs don't want to go down. I asked for a clarification letter from the VNY FSDO avionics inspector. Notta other than please don't install these lights. 

The lights are truly amazing! I wish the MFG would finish what they started wrt paperwork. 

-Matt

[Hank]

The way I understand the process (whuch may not be correct):

• FARs define major alterations. Anything not Major is Minor.
• Form 337 is for Major Alterations (per its title)
• Minor alterations require a logbook signoff by A&P (maybe IA, I dunno)

There are two hitches in this process:

1. Some A&Ps are unwilling to signoff anything, and file a 337 for every alteration more involved than replacing the air in your tires with nitrogen 
2. There is zero consistency in opinions and approvals from one FSDO to another, it's like tbey are all separate kingdoms with their own interpretation of every line in the FARs. Sometimes one FSDO will approve a mod, and later another FSDO will determine it isn't allowed and must be removed, all paperwork and written & signed approvals from the first FSDO notwithstanding. To me, this is asinine and should not be permitted,  it's just a bureaucrat on a power trip. But it's the environment we are stuck with . . . "Drain the swamp" anyone?

[bradp]

Seems the definition of minor modification.  It’s certainly not major by its definition. 

Find another A&P if yours is pointing you down the DER pathway for wait for it ... a light bulb. To me a DER would be the person I would need if I wanted to slap a 310 HP and a 5 blade fully feathering wonderprop on a C model.  This is the wrong zip code. 

[tigers2007]

I’m taking ten steps backwards here and looking at the big picture. Is it really that crazy now that maintenance engineers are scrutinizing lightbulbs? I think that any A&P that is bent out of shape over a G.A. nav light bulb needs to be shaken until unconscious. The frail and A&P’s out there breed hangar fairy jobs by the millions.

Mike Busch has a webinar that outlines the articulation skill set that basically an A&P can do whatever they want (except prop and instrument work ) as long as it would be viewed as “reasonable”. They are only bound by AD’s and a couple other things (mostly for newer aircraft).


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[mooniac15u]

The issue is more complex than changing a lightbulb.  The navigation lights are supposed to meet specifications for intensity, color, and viewing angle.  How is an A&P supposed to make that kind of determination if someone walks in with an uncertified LED bulb? 

[aviatoreb]

Joke: How many FAA certificated personnel does it take to change a light bulb?

[MB65E]

40 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I’m taking ten steps backwards here and looking at the big picture. Is it really that crazy now that maintenance engineers are scrutinizing lightbulbs? I think that any A&P that is bent out of shape over a G.A. nav light bulb needs to be shaken until unconscious. The frail and A&P’s out there breed hangar fairy jobs by the millions.

Mike Busch has a webinar that outlines the articulation skill set that basically an A&P can do whatever they want (except prop and instrument work ) as long as it would be viewed as “reasonable”. They are only bound by AD’s and a couple other things (mostly for newer aircraft).


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It's just the world we live in now days. I put food on the table with my certificate. Personally, I get a kick out of doing things right. I know they are just lamps, but you have not met my PMI.

However, The lamps DO exceed the TSO. Whelen has those documents.

I was just looking to see what others have done for approvals. 

I plan on installing them referencing the engineering and AC guides used by the DER. 

-Matt

[Marauder]

I’m taking ten steps backwards here and looking at the big picture. Is it really that crazy now that maintenance engineers are scrutinizing lightbulbs? I think that any A&P that is bent out of shape over a G.A. nav light bulb needs to be shaken until unconscious. The frail and A&P’s out there breed hangar fairy jobs by the millions.

 

Mike Busch has a webinar that outlines the articulation skill set that basically an A&P can do whatever they want (except prop and instrument work ) as long as it would be viewed as “reasonable”. They are only bound by AD’s and a couple other things (mostly for newer aircraft).

 

 

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As Matt stated above, it is the world we live in. It is also driven by the standards that were established years ago for aviation. These standards should be “modernized” and that is what was being proposed with the FAR re-writes pertaining to airplane certification and modification. It makes absolutely no sense that putting air bag seat belts require special approval. I’m sure there is some official out there that is saying “what if the airbag deployed while you are on short final”.

 

From a legal perspective, I’m sure finding unauthorized work or parts may help litigations on whomever can benefit from it.

 

 

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[RobertGary1]

I'm waiting for the one that has fully self contained ADS-B out integrated into the bulb. No install ADS-B solution.

https://www.uavionix.com/news/uavionix-reveals-skybeacon-the-first-near-zero-install-ads-b-out-solution/

-Robert

[Raptor05121]

16 hours ago, MB65E said:

So Raptor, what is your course of action for approval?

-Matt

 

Minor alteration with IA signature

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

Minor alteration with IA signature

This is what I'd do in a minute and not think another thing about it.

[bradp]

Here’s what I ended up doing because my strobe on one side and my power supply on the other are failing.  Wish I could have done just the chromas - but these were the next best thing. 

 

[EricJ]

Meanwhile:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/navstrobe11369.php?recfer=1563

Looks like there are lots of others to pick from, too.   The ones in the link aren't colored (but my lens covers are), and the colored ones aren't much more expensive if that is desired. 

I recall a discussion in one of the landing light threads where one point of view supported by regulations is that replacement bulbs just need to meet the functional requirements, e.g., the typical replacement incandescent (or halogen or whatever) bulbs aren't TSO/PMA/whatever.  I don't know why the same argument couldn't be made here.    One of the local AP/IA's was working on my airplane and I asked about this and this was consistent with his thinking on the matter. 

[Raptor05121]

I want to meet an FAA inspector that would write up this. With as liberal as they are being with the new avionics, NASA forms, etc- for them to take a problem something as trivial as LED landing lights or nav lights, I just can't fathom it.

[tigers2007]

I want to meet an FAA inspector that would write up this. With as liberal as they are being with the new avionics, NASA forms, etc- for them to take a problem something as trivial as LED landing lights or nav lights, I just can't fathom it.

The only reason I can see them doing that would be if it was so ridiculous that they would have no other choice but to (i.e. homemade nav or landing lightbulb etc)

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[MB65E]

The references I was referring to are AC43-210A and Order 8110.37. I plan to use these reference in the minor alteration log entry.  My comments were only to see if anyone else had better data. Keep in mind this is not just for my personal Mooney...

-Matt

[MB65E]

12 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I want to meet an FAA inspector that would write up this. With as liberal as they are being with the new avionics, NASA forms, etc- for them to take a problem something as trivial as LED landing lights or nav lights, I just can't fathom it.

 They exist.

-Matt

[Hector]

I want to meet an FAA inspector that would write up this. With as liberal as they are being with the new avionics, NASA forms, etc- for them to take a problem something as trivial as LED landing lights or nav lights, I just can't fathom it.

Put them on, get IA to sign logbook entry and forget about it. Keep your old bulbs just in case. It’s what I did. I won a set of NavStrobe Sextant as a door price at the Mooney Summit. Just a bulb replacement like the Whelen but they strobe too (wing tip and tail light) simply by turning them on/off twice within 5 seconds. Much brighter than what I had, the strobe function makes it even more visible, and I’m not losing any sleep over it.


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