Mooneys overrepresented in gear ups

[ArtVandelay]

34 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

I didnt say misrepresented.  I said over represented statistically.  Are 10% of the retract GA planes flying Mooneys?  if so then the number would seem OK.  If not why are we having more gear ups than XYZ planes?

Fixed that for you, obviously the percentage of retractable planes is what matters.

[Fighterpilot1232]

25 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Well, I do have a thought on why this happens in Mooneys.  We are in love with the speed, so lots of people come into the airport fast, and wait until they are on the downwind to drop the gear.  They want to get to the airport as fast as they can.  Unfortunately, there is always stuff that happens in the pattern.  The tower wants to have a conversation, there is another plane coming in on a conflicting path, there is somebody on the ground taking off on a conflicting runway, there is someone in the pattern not talking, lots of distraction.  It's maybe conservative, but I do my LCB GUMPS 6 miles out and then talk to myself when I turn base and on final.  That means I am coming in to the pattern at 90, not 120, but so be it.  Knock on wood, I am in the "not yet" category.

@jlunseth

Someone said this well, When you see a Mooney on radar you often see Two blips,  one for the plane and one for the pilot. The speed is nice but it can be dangerous. Some pilots try there best to stay ahead of the Mooney but then they forget.

 

 

Another scenario is complacency, the Mooneys are the wrong airplanes to become complacent in, the speed makes complacency all the more deadly.

[Fighterpilot1232]

44 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Fixed that for you, obviously the percentage of retractable planes is what matters.

Curious what percentage of the u.s fleet is retract and non-retract.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, Fighterpilot1232 said:

You don't?

If you are not required there is no reason to put yourself in more of a mess than you are already in.

The insurance company is going to be your biggest issue, and convincing your wife to fly with you again , Because of the fact that you are not requires to report to the transportation safety board there is a gap in the statistics used in this video. Or any other for that matter. @RobertGary1

I honestly don't have any idea what you are referring to. Are you still referring to why its surprising there aren't more gear ups in the NTSB database because they are not typically a reportable situation?

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

5 minutes ago, Fighterpilot1232 said:

Curious what percentage of the u.s fleet is retract and non-retract.

As I recall from a Flying article they are a small percent of the total fleet but the bulk of the hours flown.

 

-Robert

[Fighterpilot1232]

6 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I honestly don't have any idea what you are referring to. Are you still referring to why its surprising there aren't more gear ups in the NTSB database because they are not typically a reportable situation?

-Robert

Robert I was referring to your previous statement in reference to reporting to the NTSB. =>

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why would you report a gear up to the NTSB when it's not required?

 

-Robert 

 

[kortopates]

22 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

As I recall from a Flying article they are a small percent of the total fleet but the bulk of the hours flown.

 

-Robert

Probably a lot of truth to that. I've also read that Mooney's make up about 10% of the GA fleet but don't know.

But what I can say, is since the 3 accidents/incidents reported on Mooney's on July 17, we've had two more gear incidents - a K reported on the 25th and J reported today. The K was reported as a gear failure on landing which of course is very possible (that definitely happens a lot too) but many gear up landings are often first reported that way too. 

In comparison, we've only seen one Beech gear incident reported on July 14 on, and that one also refers to a failed gear. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by kortopates

[RobertGary1]

11 minutes ago, Fighterpilot1232 said:

Robert I was referring to your previous statement in reference to reporting to the NTSB. =>

 

Fair enough but I'm not seeing the connection between your statement and mine. Maybe I'm just missing it.

-Robert

[jlunseth]

Pertinent to this topic, there is an article in AOPA ePilot from yesterday or today, about an ASRS Report from an M202M pilot.  Instructed to "keep your speed up" by ATC because of a following jet, he did so, ending with an ugly scraping sound upon "landing."  The MD80 had to go around.  So there are two choices, either control your airspeed and don't go gear up, making the MD80 behind you go around, or don't control your speed, go gear up, making the MD80 behind you go around.  I guess if you choose gear up, it is not your fault that the MD80 had to go around.

[flyboy0681]

Like many have said here over the years in the case of mechanical issues preventing the gear from dropping, the sooner you resign to the fact that the plane now belongs to the insurance company, the better a job you can do at getting down safely.

Bennett, do you remember that gear up of N100NY at your home drome?

 

 

[carusoam]

The ASN report includes links to the articles regarding the incident...

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=152529

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

On 7/28/2017 at 10:30 AM, jlunseth said:

Pertinent to this topic, there is an article in AOPA ePilot from yesterday or today, about an ASRS Report from an M202M pilot.  Instructed to "keep your speed up" by ATC because of a following jet, he did so, ending with an ugly scraping sound upon "landing."  The MD80 had to go around.  So there are two choices, either control your airspeed and don't go gear up, making the MD80 behind you go around, or don't control your speed, go gear up, making the MD80 behind you go around.  I guess if you choose gear up, it is not your fault that the MD80 had to go around.

Without the smiley face its hard to tell if this is a joke but obviously if a pilot cannot keep up his speed and still get the gear down he should not be flying.

-Robert

[jlunseth]

Because you can, does not mean you should.   Here is what I said earlier:

"Well, I do have a thought on why this happens in Mooneys.  We are in love with the speed, so lots of people come into the airport fast, and wait until they are on the downwind to drop the gear.  They want to get to the airport as fast as they can.  Unfortunately, there is always stuff that happens in the pattern.  The tower wants to have a conversation, there is another plane coming in on a conflicting path, there is somebody on the ground taking off on a conflicting runway, there is someone in the pattern not talking, lots of distraction.  It's maybe conservative, but I do my LCB GUMPS 6 miles out and then talk to myself when I turn base and on final.  That means I am coming in to the pattern at 90, not 120, but so be it.  Knock on wood, I am in the 'not yet' category."

We don't have a professional co-pilot flying right seat, someone to double check the checklist in case we missed something.  So yes, sure, we can all do 2,000 straight flawless hi-speed patterns flown at 120.  Its number 2,001 where there is a distraction and the empty right seat doesn't fix it for us. 

[kortopates]

Another weekend and another Mooney gear up landing incident - this time another J-Bar Mooney - 66' M20C in FL on 7/29  

[RobertGary1]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Because you can, does not mean you should.   Here is what I said earlier:

 

I guess there are differing thoughts on this subject. Personally I'm not a big fan of "do this at this point" because changing things up can often cause you to not reach that point. I don't have a problem with students maintaining speed on approach. To me its more important that they're running the pre-landing checklist. In addition Mooney did an exceptional job of putting the gear down indiciator light in a position you can see it over the fence without taking your eye off the runway as a backup. 

In general if you are based at a busy airport I'm not sure its realistic to have to always decline a request to keep speed up.

I have a voice annunciator in my Mooney that hopefully would also be helpful. After many gear ups pilots reported that they mistook the gear horn for the stall horn. In fact I"ve flown in many Mooneys in which the gear horn isn't cycling correctly and subsequently does sound like just the stall horn. Knock on wood 20 years with a clean good belly.

 

-Robert

[Bob_Belville]

On 7/10/2017 at 7:07 PM, M20Doc said:

I had a call today from an owner of Porsche powered M20L who just had a gear collapse, sadly it will likely end up on the scrap heap, he wasn't happy to hear that news. luckily he has a spare.  

Another recently had gear failure in British Columbia.

Clarence

Does the Porsche require an engine teardown? I'm think they aren't issuing "Mandatory" SB's these days.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Does the Porsche require an engine teardown? I'm think they aren't issuing "Mandatory" SB's these days.

From my understanding, the type certificate has been surrendered to the FAA and all factory support is withdrawn.  It's an expensive paper weight.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

They were sure to kill it with s valve spring AD, must be replaced every 1200hrs I think it was. Coincidentally they stopped making valve springs for it too. 

[Guest]

AD 99-04-15 calls for replacing valve springs every 500 hours.

Clarence

[steingar]

On 7/27/2017 at 4:24 PM, jlunseth said:

Well, I do have a thought on why this happens in Mooneys.  We are in love with the speed, so lots of people come into the airport fast, and wait until they are on the downwind to drop the gear.  They want to get to the airport as fast as they can.  Unfortunately, there is always stuff that happens in the pattern.  The tower wants to have a conversation, there is another plane coming in on a conflicting path, there is somebody on the ground taking off on a conflicting runway, there is someone in the pattern not talking, lots of distraction.  It's maybe conservative, but I do my LCB GUMPS 6 miles out and then talk to myself when I turn base and on final.  That means I am coming in to the pattern at 90, not 120, but so be it.  Knock on wood, I am in the "not yet" category.

This sounds about right.  Humans are distractible by nature.  Don't tell me what a great stick you are, and how you'll never never never forget to drop the gear (yes, I've had this very conversation).  I bet I can distract you to the point where you forget.  If I can't I know a couple little kids that could manage it nicely.

I was actually taught to have the gear and flaps down and trim set before you hit the downwind.  Slower, I admit, but I like it.  Very very easy to get distracted in the pattern.  Better to deal with this stuff beforehand, and keep your eyes outside for the flying near the airport, where most midairs occur.

[pinerunner]

Why so many? One reason would be that Mooney get flown quite a bit. They're affordable and very attractive as a complex time builder. I agree that a brand new complex pilot may be the least likely to forget. I suspect there is a sour spot (opposite of sweet spot) in ones experience where you are getting comfortable with the whole thing and are ripe to get burned. I suspect I'm in that category at 450 hours, especially I'm since working on my instrument and everything else is getting more complicated.

[mike_elliott]

11 minutes ago, pinerunner said:

Why so many?

Distractions from the usual and Failure to use a pre landing checklist on final.

[ArtVandelay]

Do all Mooneys have a gear alarm?

[Mooneymite]

The solution to the forgotten gear is technology.

It doesn't matter how careful one is, given enough landings in enough different situations anyone can (will?) forget the gear.

Seems like a simple ground proximity sensor wired to a delicate part of the male anatomy would reduce gear up landings to virtually zero.

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, pinerunner said:

Why so many? One reason would be that Mooney get flown quite a bit. They're affordable and very attractive as a complex time builder. I agree that a brand new complex pilot may be the least likely to forget. I suspect there is a sour spot (opposite of sweet spot) in ones experience where you are getting comfortable with the whole thing and are ripe to get burned. I suspect I'm in that category at 450 hours, especially I'm since working on my instrument and everything else is getting more complicated.

I don't know there is any evidence that suggests Mooneys have more gear up accidents per flight hour than any other GA plane.

-Robert